[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] A Page of Rozyszcze Russian Language Death Records
William Remus
remus at hawaii.edu
Thu Dec 8 15:08:54 PST 2005
Rose and others were interested in seeing a full page of Rozyszcze Russian language death records from 1894. Here is the page with Wilhelm Frohlich as number 13. No need for any translations but just for your enjoyment.
http://www.cba.hawaii.edu/remus/genes/volhynia/wmfrohlichbig.jpg
Regards Bill
********************************************************************
William Remus
Emeritus Professor of Information Technology Management
2404 Maile Way, Honolulu, Hawaii, USA 96822
Telephone: 808-956-7608 Fax: 808-956-9889
For Information on and Applications for the CIS Doctoral Program
http://www.hawaii.edu/cis
For Information about Bill Remus and the Courses He Teaches
http://www.cba.hawaii.edu/remus
********************************************************************
----- Original Message -----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org
Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2005 11:34 pm
Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 31, Issue 6
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited (William Remus)
> 2. Re: Birth Records in Zhitomir or Rozyszcze? (Eduardo Kommers)
> 3. Re: Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited (Jerry Frank)
> 4. Re: Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited (Rose Ingram)
> 5. Re: Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited (Rose Ingram)
> 6. Re: Birth Records in Zhitomir or Rozyszcze? (Gerhard Koenig)
> 7. Re: Rozyszcze Death Records ... (Gerhard Koenig)
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:06:51 -1000
> From: William Remus <remus at hawaii.edu>
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <f5c0fde62f621.4397089b at hawaii.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I have gotten a number of questions by email on these records. So
> following will be an illustration followed by a mystery record to
> challenge for intermediate researchers and then one for advanced
> researchers. And thereby explain better these records for everyone
> on the list.
>
> First, these records prior to 1893 are pretty easy to work with
> even without German. So here is an example followed by a close up
> of record. Click on the this link (be sure to expand the image)
> http://www.cba.hawaii.edu/remus/genes/volhynia/danielfrohlichbig.jpg
>
> And notice the typical page layout with death date, burial date,
> who died and their parents and village if young or spouse if
> older, location of birth, and age at death. Look at record 305.
> From column 3 you will see that Daniel Frohlich from Stanislawka
> died. His wife was Wilhelmine nee Labrenz. Column 1 shows his
> death date was 26 October 1876 (the month is several entries above
> the death date and the year is at the top of the page).
> http://www.cba.hawaii.edu/remus/genes/volhynia/danielfrohlichsm.gif
> Now click on the above link for a close up of record 305 for a
> closer look. In column 4 you see his birth location in (as
> provided by people in the village - might not be accurate). I find
> this writing difficult to decipher but it is clear he was born in
> Kries (county) Kolo in District Kalisch (western modern Poland).
> The village might be Lestick. How do you know for sure? A good
> choice is to ask the list for help providing a scan. Some
> knowledgeable folk like our Jerry Frank can make a better
> interpretation of the village name and check it against a list of
> village names in Kolo (such his list is on the SGGEE website).
> Column 6 is easy it is the reported age at death (possibly
> inaccurate); In this case it is 60 years.
>
> Now for advanced researchers to illustrate the Russian records (no
> wonder our ancestors left). After 1892 the birth death and
> marriage records are in Russian and here is one such record. Click on
> http://www.cba.hawaii.edu/remus/genes/volhynia/wmfrohlich.jpg
>
> Here is the 1894 death record of Wilhelm Frohlich (column 3 - I
> know by the German text included). But notice that you can't tell
> without careful work the village of his death and his spouse
> (Ernestine nee Rudlaff). You can see in column 1 and 2 the dates
> of his death and burial but you need to know the Russian months to
> find the month. Note that except for the name Wilhelm Frohlich you
> are dealing with written Russian Cyrillic script. This is a
> particular problem in column 4 when you try to find out Wilhelm's
> birth location. It is probably Russian script of a Russian version
> of the Polish name. So here you need to know Russian script plus
> lots of possible Polish locations.
>
> So advanced researchers, where do you think Wilhelm was born?
> (This is not intended to be a trick question - Daniel is not
> necessarily related to Wilhelm). And what month of 1894 did he die?
>
> This is not intended to scare the faith hearted. Just to
> illustrate the value of internet friends.
>
> regards bill
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:45:11 -0200
> From: "Eduardo Kommers" <chiquinhok at terra.com.br>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Birth Records in Zhitomir or
> Rozyszcze?
> To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Message-ID: <000a01c5fba1$690be1e0$6c07a8c0 at TUSSO>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hello members!
>
> I was away from my researches because the university got my time.
> Is there any new about birth records in Volhynia (Zhitomir or
> Rozyszcze)
> after 1885?
> I'm looking for August Kommers (birth yaer 1886).
>
> Thanks
>
> Eduardo Kommers
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:53:56 -0700
> From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited
> To: remus at hawaii.edu, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.0.20051207201307.01eee610 at shaw.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> DECIPHERING THE PLACE NAME:
>
>
> At 07:06 PM 07/12/2005, William Remus wrote:
> >I have gotten a number of questions by email on these records. So
> >following will be an illustration followed by a mystery record to
> >challenge for intermediate researchers and then one for advanced
> >researchers. And thereby explain better these records for
> everyone on the list.
> >
> >First, these records prior to 1893 are pretty easy to work with
> even
> >without German. So here is an example followed by a close up of
> >record. Click on the this link (be sure to expand the image)
> >http://www.cba.hawaii.edu/remus/genes/volhynia/danielfrohlichbig.jpg
> >
> >And notice the typical page layout with death date, burial date,
> who
> >died and their parents and village if young or spouse if older,
> >location of birth, and age at death. Look at record 305. From
> column
> >3 you will see that Daniel Frohlich from Stanislawka died. His
> wife
> >was Wilhelmine nee Labrenz. Column 1 shows his death date was 26
> >October 1876 (the month is several entries above the death date
> and
> >the year is at the top of the page).
>
>
>
>
> Bill thinks the place name looks like Lestick.
>
> I prefer to work with the full page rather than just one small
> section of it. This allows you to compare letters where they may
> be
> difficult to decipher.
>
> In old script, an L is sometimes hard to distinguish from an S so
> we
> must first check that. I compare to other known words such as
> Labrenz, Ludwinow and Sapust and am convinced it is an L.
>
> The next letter is difficult Bill thinks it might be an "e".
> Again
> look for other words that include that later. In virtually every
> instance, it is written similar to an "i" without the dot. I
> therefore rule out "e". That pretty much leaves "a" or "u",
> neither
> of which matches the normal writing so he got sloppy.
>
> I agree that the third letter is "s".
>
> For the fourth letter, compare to words like Dorothea, Gustav and
> others and I am convinced it is not a "t". Compare to other words
> like Wysockie I start to think it might be "k" but then I go to
> words
> like Schmidt, Deutsch, and others and have a gut feeling it is "h".
>
> The last 3 letters seem clearer - I think "isk".
>
> That gives me Lashisk or Lushisk.
>
> Bad news though. The "sh" is not a common letter combination in
> Polish writing so this must be a Germanized spelling OR maybe it
> is a
> "k" after all. Regardless what it is, I cannot find a good match.
>
> I consider Lasice, Laziski or Laziska, but none of these are in
> the
> Kolo region.
>
> My best guess is Laski though I remain far from convinced. One
> exists in the Kolo region - about 23 km almost due south of Kolo,
> or
> 4 km SE of Turek. For lack of a better solution, it is probably
> worth looking into.
>
> I went through this analysis so that all of you could learn how to
> do
> it. I have no special skills at reading this stuff but sometimes,
> by
> a process of elimination, you can come up with a viable solution
> to
> your place name dilemma.
>
> Now if some of you were related to other people on this page, I
> could
> point you clearly to the specific location of birth. This brings
> me
> to a good example of hanging letters that you must be aware of.
> Look
> at entry 304 immediately above Bill's example. Do you think the
> person was born in Deutsch Wymisch? Almost but not quite. Look
> at
> the line below and you will see it starts with "le". Not
> really. Those two letters belong to the place name above which is
> actually Deutsch Wymischle.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta
> FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:44:34 -0800
> From: Rose Ingram <roseingram at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited
> To: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>, remus at hawaii.edu,
> ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <01da01c5fbb2$16c77cd0$2f174618 at roses>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Could this place be a mis-spelling of Lisiec - about 8-10
> kilometers south
> of Konin town.
>
> I thinkt he pronunciation would be close to what is writtem.
>
> Rose Ingram
>
>
> From: "Jerry Frank" Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:53 PM
>
> > DECIPHERING THE PLACE NAME:
> >
> >
> > At 07:06 PM 07/12/2005, William Remus wrote:
> >>I have gotten a number of questions by email on these records. So
> >>following will be an illustration followed by a mystery record to
> >>challenge for intermediate researchers and then one for advanced
> >>researchers. And thereby explain better these records for
> everyone on the
> >>list.
> >>
> >>First, these records prior to 1893 are pretty easy to work with even
> >>without German. So here is an example followed by a close up of
> >>record. Click on the this link (be sure to expand the image)
> >>http://www.cba.hawaii.edu/remus/genes/volhynia/danielfrohlichbig.jpg
> >>
> >>And notice the typical page layout with death date, burial date, who
> >>died and their parents and village if young or spouse if older,
> >>location of birth, and age at death. Look at record 305. From column
> >>3 you will see that Daniel Frohlich from Stanislawka died. His wife
> >>was Wilhelmine nee Labrenz. Column 1 shows his death date was 26
> >>October 1876 (the month is several entries above the death date and
> >>the year is at the top of the page).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill thinks the place name looks like Lestick.
> >
> > I prefer to work with the full page rather than just one small
> > section of it. This allows you to compare letters where they
> may be
> > difficult to decipher.
> >
> > In old script, an L is sometimes hard to distinguish from an S
> so we
> > must first check that. I compare to other known words such as
> > Labrenz, Ludwinow and Sapust and am convinced it is an L.
> >
> > The next letter is difficult Bill thinks it might be an "e". Again
> > look for other words that include that later. In virtually every
> > instance, it is written similar to an "i" without the dot. I
> > therefore rule out "e". That pretty much leaves "a" or "u", neither
> > of which matches the normal writing so he got sloppy.
> >
> > I agree that the third letter is "s".
> >
> > For the fourth letter, compare to words like Dorothea, Gustav and
> > others and I am convinced it is not a "t". Compare to other words
> > like Wysockie I start to think it might be "k" but then I go to
> words> like Schmidt, Deutsch, and others and have a gut feeling it
> is "h".
> >
> > The last 3 letters seem clearer - I think "isk".
> >
> > That gives me Lashisk or Lushisk.
> >
> > Bad news though. The "sh" is not a common letter combination in
> > Polish writing so this must be a Germanized spelling OR maybe it
> is a
> > "k" after all. Regardless what it is, I cannot find a good match.
> >
> > I consider Lasice, Laziski or Laziska, but none of these are in the
> > Kolo region.
> >
> > My best guess is Laski though I remain far from convinced. One
> > exists in the Kolo region - about 23 km almost due south of
> Kolo, or
> > 4 km SE of Turek. For lack of a better solution, it is probably
> > worth looking into.
> >
> > I went through this analysis so that all of you could learn how
> to do
> > it. I have no special skills at reading this stuff but
> sometimes, by
> > a process of elimination, you can come up with a viable solution to
> > your place name dilemma.
> >
> > Now if some of you were related to other people on this page, I
> could> point you clearly to the specific location of birth. This
> brings me
> > to a good example of hanging letters that you must be aware of.
> Look> at entry 304 immediately above Bill's example. Do you think the
> > person was born in Deutsch Wymisch? Almost but not quite. Look at
> > the line below and you will see it starts with "le". Not
> > really. Those two letters belong to the place name above which is
> > actually Deutsch Wymischle.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta
> > FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:51:26 -0800
> From: Rose Ingram <roseingram at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze Death Records Revisited
> To: remus at hawaii.edu, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <01e501c5fbb3$0c431d90$2f174618 at roses>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Bill, I would like to see the whole page which contain Wilhelm
> death
> record.
>
> He died Feb 24 and buried Feb 26th, 1894.
>
> Rose Ingram
>
> From: "William Remus"
> > ------------snippped-----------------
> > Here is the 1894 death record of Wilhelm Frohlich (column 3 - I
> know by
> > the German text included). But notice that you can't tell
> without careful
> > work the village of his death and his spouse (Ernestine nee
> Rudlaff). You
> > can see in column 1 and 2 the dates of his death and burial but
> you need
> > to know the Russian months to find the month. Note that except
> for the
> > name Wilhelm Frohlich you are dealing with written Russian
> Cyrillic
> > script. This is a particular problem in column 4 when you try to
> find out
> > Wilhelm's birth location. It is probably Russian script of a
> Russian
> > version of the Polish name. So here you need to know Russian
> script plus
> > lots of possible Polish locations.
> >
> > So advanced researchers, where do you think Wilhelm was born?
> (This is
> > not intended to be a trick question - Daniel is not necessarily
> related to
> > Wilhelm). And what month of 1894 did he die?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:02:57 +0100 (MET)
> From: "Gerhard Koenig" <Gerhard.Koenig at gmx.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Birth Records in Zhitomir or
> Rozyszcze?
> To: "Eduardo Kommers" <chiquinhok at terra.com.br>
> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <26624.1134028977 at www64.gmx.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> > Is there any new about birth records in Volhynia (Zhitomir or
> Rozyszcze)
> > after 1885? I'm looking for August Kommers (birth year 1886).
>
> Hello Eduardo,
>
> do you you know some place names from the family of August Kommers?
>
> The news you can compare here:
>
> -> http://wiki.wolhynien.de
> -> go to "Filme der Mormonen" ... list of new films
> -> go to "Filme Kirchspiel Rozyszcze" ... for example
> => all filmnumbers are connected with the origin entries from the
> familyresearch database. note: in the film titles are some differences
>
> By this way:
> If someone need a letter example in Russian, Ukrain or Polish ...
> some ideas
> you can read under the subject "Uebersetzungen"
>
> A nice christmas time to all;))
>
> gerhard
>
> --
> Historical Society - http://HistorischerVerein.wolhynien.de
> Family research in Volhynia - http://wolhynien.de
> Informations + Questions - http://forum.wolhynien.de
> Take part + read - http://wiki.wolhynien.de
> --
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:48:07 +0100 (MET)
> From: "Gerhard Koenig" <Gerhard.Koenig at gmx.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze Death Records ...
> To: remus at hawaii.edu
> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <8403.1134031687 at www64.gmx.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello Bill,
>
> # birth location? Daniel Froehlich
>
> Jerry:
> "Lashisk" ... The "sh" is not a common letter combination in
> Polish writing so this must be a Germanized spelling ...
> My best guess is "Laski".
>
> I have the same meaning and read here "Lashisk". It can be the
> typical spelling of this persons ... a combination of different
> German dialects.
>
> # death certificate Wilhelm Froehlich
>
> column1+2: Rose wrote it ... 24.2./26.2.1894
> column3: Wilhelm Froehlich inhabitant colony Starij Dubischtsche
> (German:Alt-Dubiszcze)
> column4: Gouv. Kalisch
> column5: 64 years
> column6+7: entry for one men
> column8: married
> column9: old
> column10: buried on the cemetery of Alt-Dubiszcze, cantor Schultz
>
> About Alt-Dubiszcze:
> source "history of the parish Rozyszcze, 1885"
> colony founded in 1856, 22 farms (with the colony Tarnowola),
> 33 mens, 38 womens, 71 children
>
> gerhard
>
> --
> Historical Society - www.HistorischerVerein.wolhynien.de
> Family research in Volhynia - www.wolhynien.de
> Informations + Questions - www.forum.wolhynien.de
> Take part + read - www.wiki.wolhynien.de
> --
>
> Lust, ein paar Euro nebenbei zu verdienen? Ohne Kosten, ohne Risiko!
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
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