[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 37, Issue 1
Harry Jansohn
hrjansohn at earthlink.net
Fri Jun 2 13:09:35 PDT 2006
Hello all,
Just to add a little to our letters about Low German or
Plattdeutsch, there is an interesting article in the current
issue of German Life magazine (June/July 2006)
about the small town of Cole Camp, Missouri
where: "Here we speak Low German". It
mentions that a renewed interest in their heritage and
in "Low German" has made Cole Camp, Missouri one
of the few places in the United States where the language
is treasured and spoken. Cole Camp is about 100 miles
southeast of Kansas City, MO, and was settled in the
1800's at a time when about one and a half million Low
German speakers made their way to America and the
language flourished in farm areas of Nebraska, Iowa,
Missouri and nearby states.
If you are not familiar with German Life magazine I would
highly recommend it. I have been a subscriber for over
ten years and have never been disappointed. It was very
popular in the Washington, DC area, where I am originally
from. If you are interested in subscriptions, their web site is:
http://www.GermanLife.com.
Janice Jansohn
> [Original Message]
> From: <ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org>
> To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Date: 6/1/2006 3:28:25 PM
> Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 37, Issue 1
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: PLATTDEUTSCHER origins (Nancy Gertner)
> 2. Re: PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB (Otto)
> 3. Re: PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB (shoning at att.net)
> 4. Re: PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB (Mike McHenry)
> 5. Re: PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB (JMPerl47 at aol.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:54:35 -0500
> From: Nancy Gertner <nancygertner at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER origins
> To: Mike McHenry <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
> Cc: 'S G G E E' <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Message-ID: <2525481D-7203-4053-AAC8-40B909220169 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> > Does this suggest that the members of this club
> > were all from northern Germany?
>
> No, but perhaps their roots reach there eventually.
>
> In the USA today, there are children that speak Plattdeutsch dialect.
>
> They live in the plains, like Oklahoma and Kansas.
>
> They moved there from Mexico.
>
> Their ancestors lived in Canada before moving to Mexico.
>
> Before that, they lived in Russia.
>
> Before Russia, they lived in West Prussia.
>
> Before that, perhaps the Netherlands.
>
> These are Mennonite families, and their way of life has preserved the
> Plattdeutsch dialect in perhaps a more 'pure' form than what is found
> in Europe.
>
> Probably 200 years or more have passed since their ancestors were
> born in West Prussia, in a place that is now in Poland (near Vistula
> and Nogat Rivers) and not northern Germany.
>
> http://www.mennolink.org/doc/lg/index.html
>
> for Mennonite Plattdeutsch dictionary
>
> Nancy
>
> On May 31, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Mike McHenry wrote:
>
> > Thanks to all for your comments. This is in a 1911 city directory.
> > There are
> > several German clubs in it. Does this suggest that the members of
> > this club
> > were all from northern Germany?
> >
> > Mike
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:50:40 -0400
> From: Otto <otto at schienke.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB
> To: S G G E E <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>, Mike McHenry
> <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
> Message-ID: <B0C3B946-A913-4B9C-836A-83C74C76FE0F at schienke.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Evening Mike,
>
> One cannot ascertain from the word "Platt-deutscher"
> the 'national' background of a person.
>
> "Northern Germany" is a political designation, not an ethnic one.
> One must do a background research on the persons claiming membership
> in the Club.
>
> Do not get caught up in the National boundary German bit.
> National/Political boundaries change-Ethnicity does not.
> People live 'in their dialects of language', even in Germany.
>
> Flat, or Low German, is the varied dialect of the lowland/coastal
> GERMANIC people.
>
> Great confusion exists in naming Germanic dialects.
> For instance, linguists never refer to 'official' or 'standard'
> German as 'hochdeutsch'.
> To them 'high' German is German spoken in the high elevation.
>
> There is a tendency to call all other dialects other than 'official'
> German, 'Plattdeutsch'.
> This is not correct.
>
> "Platt ist Flatt" . . . Flat is flat, all of the low areas are flat.
> The term 'Low' German (Niederdeutsch) and 'Plattdeutsch'(Flat German)
> are used interchangeably.
> Depending on the speaker, Platt 'may' refer to 'Plattdietsch',
> a dialect spoken by only SOME Mennonite.
> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Germanic_languages
> An excerpt from the article:
>
> Low German (North Saxon):
> Ik segg et/dat up Nedderd??tsch/Platt(d??tsch).
>
> Low German (Mennonite Plautdietsch):
> Ekj/Etj saje et op Nadadietsch/Plautdietsch.
>
> Dutch:
> Ik zeg het in het Nederduits/Platduits.
>
> Afrikaans:
> Ek s? dit in Nederduits/Platduits.
>
> Standard German (High Germanic):
> Ich sage es auf Niederdeutsch/Platt(deutsch).
>
> Eastern Yiddish (High Germanic):
> Ik zogs oyf niderdaytsh. (.??? ????? ???
> ??????????)
>
> English (Anglo-Frisian):
> I say it in Low German/Flat German
>
> For those wanting an example of Neiderpruessisch/Lowprussian
> (Tharau/Tarau, East Prussia)
> (this while they play Friedrich Silcher's melody -1827)
>
> http://www.euronet.nl/~jlemmens/tharau.html
>
> Read Simon Dach's "Anke von Tharau" in the original verse.(-1637)
> Read it in the Plattdeutsch of the area.
> Read it in the high German of J. G. Herder
> (Anke later rewritten by Herder in Hochdeutsch -1778)
> "?nnchen von Tharau" (little Annie from Tarau)
>
> Learning to sing it will earn a free beer or so at times. . .
>
> On May 31, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Mike McHenry wrote:
>
> > Thanks to all for your comments. This is in a 1911 city directory.
> > There are
> > several German clubs in it. Does this suggest that the members of
> > this club
> > were all from northern Germany?
> >
> > Mike
>
> . . . Otto
>
> " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 5, 2006
> ________________________________
> "Remove what isn't... What is remains."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:13:07 +0000
> From: shoning at att.net
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB
> To: "Mike McHenry" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>, "'S G G E E'"
> <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Message-ID:
>
<053120062213.29560.447E14F200043E9A0000737821604666480902070201089C at att.ne
t>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Mike,
>
> One can assume that the founding members of the club spoke Plattdeutsch
regularly, but beyond that I would not assume too much about the membership
of a particular ethnic club. For example, although much later, in the
latter part of the 1960s, I played in the German-American Soccer League of
New York (I don't know the status of this league now; it may have ceased to
exist since then) against teams that were sponsored by various ethnic clubs
such as the Ukrainians, the Hungarians, the Greeks, Germania, etc. Players
on these teams were members of the clubs, but many had no national ties to
the clubs. They joined for sport reasons. On my team players were mostly
of German backgrounds, but we had Italians and one or two "Americans"; all
spoke American.
>
> George Shoning
>
> -------------- Original message from "Mike McHenry"
<maurmike1 at verizon.net>: --------------
>
>
> > Thanks to all for your comments. This is in a 1911 city directory.
There are
> > several German clubs in it. Does this suggest that the members of this
club
> > were all from northern Germany?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
> > [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
Otto
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:09 PM
> > To: S G G E E
> > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB
> > Importance: High
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > The full name appears to be a local designation peculiar to the
> > Hoboken area.
> > 'Eastern' refers to what, East Hoboken? East Jersey?
> > A 'Platt-Deutsch-er' refers to a Flatland German, one speaking
> > Flatland German.
> > Dutch, Angles, Frisians, Saxons, Pomeranians, East Prussians and so
> > on, spoke dialects of flat-land German.
> >
> > Inquire within your club specified area to determine the ethnicity of
> > the speakers.
> > From what lowland area do they come at the beginning of their
> > migration?
> >
> > Flat-land German is one of the major three groups of German I loosely
> > refer to as:
> > 1. Flat-land German (think sand & beaches & marshlands)
> > 2. Hilly area German (think rolling foothills)
> > 3. Mountain area German (think of yodeling and mountain climbing)
> > All three major groupings have many dialects and overlapping of the
> > dialects within their area.
> >
> > German is a catch-all word.
> > Germanic peoples are comprised of North, West, East, etc. Germanic
> > language groups.
> > Language is a home.
> > People live in their language.
> > I am writing this E-letter in a Germanic language with at least four
> > major groups to it,
> > American, British, Canadian, and Australian English.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_language
> >
> > On May 30, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Mike McHenry wrote:
> >
> > > About a month ago the list had a discussion about German dialects.
> > > My German
> > > grand parents lived in Hoboken, New Jersey from 1910 to 1920. This
> > > town was
> > > a German immigrant strong hold. For those who don't where it is
> > > located in
> > > the USA it is across the Hudson River from New York City. In going
> > > through
> > > city directories of the time I came across a number of German
> > > clubs. One was
> > > called the "Eastern Plattdeutscher Club". From the previous
> > > discussion I
> > > thought Plattdeutsch referred to a German dialect. Can anyone tell
> > > me what
> > > this inferred about the club?
> > . . . Otto
> >
> > " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 5, 2006
> > ________________________________
> > "Remove what isn't... What is remains."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:05:04 -0400
> From: "Mike McHenry" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB
> To: <shoning at att.net>, "'S G G E E'"
> <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Message-ID: <011e01c68517$6b3d7690$6601a8c0 at youre7075dc078>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> In 1911 there were about 42000 German's in Hoboken. The city is about 1
> square mile in size. This is highly concentrated. The city wasn't a
melting
> pot. The North German Lloyd and Hamburg Lines docked here to off load
> immigrants to the ferries to Ellis Island. There must be a reason why this
> club chose to distinguish it self as the Eastern Plattdeutscher Club from
> the many other German clubs. There were a number of specific German
sporting
> clubs as well.
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
> [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
> shoning at att.net
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:13 PM
> To: Mike McHenry; 'S G G E E'
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB
> Importance: High
>
> Mike,
>
> One can assume that the founding members of the club spoke Plattdeutsch
> regularly, but beyond that I would not assume too much about the
membership
> of a particular ethnic club. For example, although much later, in the
> latter part of the 1960s, I played in the German-American Soccer League of
> New York (I don't know the status of this league now; it may have ceased
to
> exist since then) against teams that were sponsored by various ethnic
clubs
> such as the Ukrainians, the Hungarians, the Greeks, Germania, etc.
Players
> on these teams were members of the clubs, but many had no national ties to
> the clubs. They joined for sport reasons. On my team players were mostly
> of German backgrounds, but we had Italians and one or two "Americans"; all
> spoke American.
>
> George Shoning
>
> -------------- Original message from "Mike McHenry"
<maurmike1 at verizon.net>:
> --------------
>
>
> > Thanks to all for your comments. This is in a 1911 city directory. There
> are
> > several German clubs in it. Does this suggest that the members of this
> club
> > were all from northern Germany?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
> > [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
Otto
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:09 PM
> > To: S G G E E
> > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB
> > Importance: High
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > The full name appears to be a local designation peculiar to the
> > Hoboken area.
> > 'Eastern' refers to what, East Hoboken? East Jersey?
> > A 'Platt-Deutsch-er' refers to a Flatland German, one speaking
> > Flatland German.
> > Dutch, Angles, Frisians, Saxons, Pomeranians, East Prussians and so
> > on, spoke dialects of flat-land German.
> >
> > Inquire within your club specified area to determine the ethnicity of
> > the speakers.
> > From what lowland area do they come at the beginning of their
> > migration?
> >
> > Flat-land German is one of the major three groups of German I loosely
> > refer to as:
> > 1. Flat-land German (think sand & beaches & marshlands)
> > 2. Hilly area German (think rolling foothills)
> > 3. Mountain area German (think of yodeling and mountain climbing)
> > All three major groupings have many dialects and overlapping of the
> > dialects within their area.
> >
> > German is a catch-all word.
> > Germanic peoples are comprised of North, West, East, etc. Germanic
> > language groups.
> > Language is a home.
> > People live in their language.
> > I am writing this E-letter in a Germanic language with at least four
> > major groups to it,
> > American, British, Canadian, and Australian English.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_language
> >
> > On May 30, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Mike McHenry wrote:
> >
> > > About a month ago the list had a discussion about German dialects.
> > > My German
> > > grand parents lived in Hoboken, New Jersey from 1910 to 1920. This
> > > town was
> > > a German immigrant strong hold. For those who don't where it is
> > > located in
> > > the USA it is across the Hudson River from New York City. In going
> > > through
> > > city directories of the time I came across a number of German
> > > clubs. One was
> > > called the "Eastern Plattdeutscher Club". From the previous
> > > discussion I
> > > thought Plattdeutsch referred to a German dialect. Can anyone tell
> > > me what
> > > this inferred about the club?
> > . . . Otto
> >
> > " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 5, 2006
> > ________________________________
> > "Remove what isn't... What is remains."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:21:41 EDT
> From: JMPerl47 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] PLATTDEUTSCHER CLUB
> To: maurmike1 at verizon.net, shoning at att.net,
> ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <492.183ca34.31afa935 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> _http://mki.wisc.edu/hgia/Building_Communities.htm_
> (http://mki.wisc.edu/hgia/Building_Communities.htm)
>
> The above link is to an article that might shed some light on the
subject.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the:
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html
>
>
> End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 37, Issue 1
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