From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Sep  2 08:29:48 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 09:29:48 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Albert Muth - Find a Grave
In-Reply-To: <55937228.13127153.1378135681933.JavaMail.root@cds026>
Message-ID: <2095536655.13127773.1378135788953.JavaMail.root@cds026>

Al's cousin shared a brief biography of Al that he posted on the Find a Grave website.  The details can be found here:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=113869611 



Jerry Frank


From spaghettitree at aol.com  Mon Sep  2 13:20:49 2013
From: spaghettitree at aol.com (T M Schoenky)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 16:20:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Albert Muth - Find a Grave
In-Reply-To: <2095536655.13127773.1378135788953.JavaMail.root@cds026>
References: <2095536655.13127773.1378135788953.JavaMail.root@cds026>
Message-ID: <8D076310CAF2029-1FBC-461E0@webmail-m226.sysops.aol.com>


What a warm and wonderful tribute!   A man I never met, but wish I had - so many questions to ask him, which I thought I could do later.....   A handsome lad, a giving human being, a gentleman who made a difference.

Thank you, Jerry Frank and Scott Hawley.

Maureen in California


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Frank <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: ger-poland-volhynia <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Mon, Sep 2, 2013 8:30 am
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Albert Muth - Find a Grave


Al's cousin shared a brief biography of Al that he posted on the Find a Grave 
website.  The details can be found here:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=113869611 



Jerry Frank
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

 


From mag_ton at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  3 07:04:44 2013
From: mag_ton at yahoo.com (magda)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2013 07:04:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124,
	Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1378148400.12284.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1378148400.12284.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <1378217084.67907.YahooMailNeo@web161405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thanks for sharing Al Muth's Find A Grave . What a loss for all of us .

Magda?


________________________________
 From: "ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org" <ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org 
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 3:00 PM
Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue 1
 

Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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If responding to a digest message, please change your subject line to that of the message and delete all other non-applicable messages.

Today's Topics:

?  1. SGGEE site is down at the moment (Karl Krueger)
?  2. Albert Muth - Find a Grave (Jerry Frank)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 03:31:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Karl Krueger <dabookk54 at yahoo.com>
To: Mail List <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Cc: sggee <contact at sggee.org>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SGGEE site is down at the moment
Message-ID:
??? <1377945105.99665.YahooMailNeo at web140806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Power is out in San Diego where the SGGEE server is located. It is expected that it may take a few hours before power is restored. The SGGEE website will not be accessible until that happens.

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 09:29:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jerry Frank <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Albert Muth - Find a Grave
Message-ID: <2095536655.13127773.1378135788953.JavaMail.root at cds026>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Al's cousin shared a brief biography of Al that he posted on the Find a Grave website.? The details can be found here:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=113869611 



Jerry Frank


------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the:
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe? http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html


------------------------------

End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue 1
***************************************************

From gilleh23 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  5 05:50:08 2013
From: gilleh23 at gmail.com (Helen Gillespie)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 08:50:08 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Odds and Ends I have found
Message-ID: <CAPK9VaL2gbJnjh8Jc=z1Wv78U6zXO7P1GDFBkXRPnqR+=gdC=w@mail.gmail.com>

Searchers in Saskatchewan

photos

http://library.usask.ca/archives/exhibitions-digital/
digital-projects/index.php

searching in Manitoba

Portage la Prairie cemetery database

http://www.city.portage-la-prairie.mb.ca/CemeterySearch.
php?Search0=Muir&cboSearchBy=1&btnSearch=Search


I ran across this site on the Manitoba govt site and thought it might be of
interest to those who may be searching families there. It is only an index,
but it does provide info on access.
http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/probate/guide.html

Although I think I have sent this before, there is also the BMD index for
Manitoba in certain years (privacy issues notwithstanding)


More digitising info from the Library of Congress - personal digital
archiving

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/news/newsletter/201308.pdf

For those who had family serve in the US army or air force and whose
records may have been burned in St. Louis archives
http://www.stripes.com/news/the-painstaking-effort-to-
recover-millions-of-burned-military-service-records-1.233869
 For those who may have had ancestors in the German army 1914-1918 ? photos
see also those in tumblr. A view of the dress, houses, The Front,
http://boingboing.net/2013/08/07/unseen-world-war-i-photos-ger.html


Helen Gillespie


From gilleh23 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  5 08:07:31 2013
From: gilleh23 at gmail.com (Helen Gillespie)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 11:07:31 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Odds and Ends I have found
In-Reply-To: <CAPK9VaL2gbJnjh8Jc=z1Wv78U6zXO7P1GDFBkXRPnqR+=gdC=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPK9VaL2gbJnjh8Jc=z1Wv78U6zXO7P1GDFBkXRPnqR+=gdC=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPK9VaLamskhM_NCOSpOxpNPO9F=ycQhtveuBuoPS_Gf-E6KRQ@mail.gmail.com>

You have to put in the complete link  - it is on two lines for some reason
http://www.city.portage-la-prairie.mb.ca/CemeterySearch.
php?Search0=Muir&cboSearchBy=1&btnSearch=Search

Helen


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Helen Gillespie <gilleh23 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Searchers in Saskatchewan
>
> photos
>
> http://library.usask.ca/archives/exhibitions-digital/
> digital-projects/index.php
>
> searching in Manitoba
>
> Portage la Prairie cemetery database
>
> http://www.city.portage-la-prairie.mb.ca/CemeterySearch.
> php?Search0=Muir&cboSearchBy=1&btnSearch=Search
>
>
> I ran across this site on the Manitoba govt site and thought it might be
> of interest to those who may be searching families there. It is only an
> index, but it does provide info on access.
> http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/probate/guide.html
>
> Although I think I have sent this before, there is also the BMD index for
> Manitoba in certain years (privacy issues notwithstanding)
>
>
> More digitising info from the Library of Congress - personal digital
> archiving
>
> http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/news/newsletter/201308.pdf
>
> For those who had family serve in the US army or air force and whose
> records may have been burned in St. Louis archives
> http://www.stripes.com/news/the-painstaking-effort-to-
> recover-millions-of-burned-military-service-records-1.233869
>  For those who may have had ancestors in the German army 1914-1918 ?
> photos see also those in tumblr. A view of the dress, houses, The Front,
> http://boingboing.net/2013/08/07/unseen-world-war-i-photos-ger.html
>
>
> Helen Gillespie
>


From tggrtime at yahoo.ca  Thu Sep  5 08:44:56 2013
From: tggrtime at yahoo.ca (B Hirsekorn)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Two villages
Message-ID: <1378395896.24584.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Two records found
in the Nowosolna, Lodz parish records have villages not listed in the Polish
Gazetteer ?Boleslawow and Felixin. 


Four of the
Boleslawow listed in the JewishGen Gazetteer place the village closer to Konin
than Lodz. However, Google has one east of Piotrkow Trybunalski? (Boles?aw?w - coordinates 51.337, 18.92). Is
this correct? If so, how should it be listed for parish and community?

According to Google, Felixin (coordinates - 51.7248,19.5976)
is located approximately 2 miles west of Andrespol, Lodz Wschodni, Lodzkie,
Poland. How should it be listed in a database - as Felixin or Andrespol, Lodz
Wschodni, Lodzkie, Poland?

Betty Hirsekorn

From marvin_geske at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  5 10:11:22 2013
From: marvin_geske at yahoo.com (Marv Geske)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 12:11:22 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Location of Wirchkufke Wolyn and Krooschnitz
Message-ID: <D56FE3DCE211445CACAAF4A8B4CB59AA@ownerPC>

I ma trying to locate two towns in Volhynia or Russia that appear in my grandfather Gustav Geske/Jeske?s Passenger list
The names are  Wirchkufke Wolyn and Krooschnitz
Below is the data from the passenger listing
1911
Ancestry.com Baltimore Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 [database on-line].
Name: Gustav Jeske Male, Black smith destination Cleveland Ohio, of Russian citizenship German race, Last residence city Sokolov, had $25, meeting a friend Trude Friede, at 3105 Vega Ave Cleveland Ohio, height 5'5 blond hair brown eyes. Wife: Hulda Jeske back in Wirchkufke Wolyn Russia. Arrival date Apr 23(28) 1911, is 26 Years 0 months old, est birth 1885, born in Russia city Krooschnitz(sp). Departed Bremen Germany on the Frankfurt -Ships Manifest dated Apr 3 1911, arrived in Balitmore Maryland Last  residence Russia. Micro film Roll Number:85 Page: 310

From paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de  Thu Sep  5 10:57:23 2013
From: paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de (Paul Rakow)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 19:57:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Manitoba wills
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1309051940200.2079@pub5.ifh.de>


   Helen,

       That guide to Manitoba probate looks very useful:
  I wish I had known about it a year ago.

       Familysearch.org has the scanned wills and probate
  files themselves, up till 1930

       Start from:

  https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1987562

    Last year I managed to figure out the index and find the will
  of a relative who died in 1930, but it would have been much
  quicker using the Manitoba guide you found. The probate file was
  nearly 40 pages long.

                     Paul Rakow

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Helen Gillespie <gilleh23 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I ran across this site on the Manitoba govt site and thought it might be
> of interest to those who may be searching families there. It is only an
> index, but it does provide info on access.
> http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/probate/guide.html
>
> Although I think I have sent this before, there is also the BMD index for
> Manitoba in certain years (privacy issues notwithstanding)
>


From dr.stewner at t-online.de  Thu Sep  5 14:21:35 2013
From: dr.stewner at t-online.de (Frank Stewner)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 23:21:35 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Village Feliksin
Message-ID: <000001ceaa7d$e6af86e0$b40e94a0$@t-online.de>

The village Feliksin is today part of Lodz and therefore we name it acc to
the SGGEE MPD location guideline as:

Lodz-Feliksin (Feliksin), Lodz, Lodzkie, Poland with the coordinates for
Legacy 514328N 193624E.

The coordinates were taken from geoportal.gov.pl and the boundary from
Google Earth.

Greetings from Hamburg

Frank Stewner



From dr.stewner at t-online.de  Thu Sep  5 14:37:05 2013
From: dr.stewner at t-online.de (Frank Stewner)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 23:37:05 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Boleslawow
Message-ID: <000001ceaa80$1104b4e0$330e1ea0$@t-online.de>

There are 6 Boleslawow shown with mapa.sukacz.pl.

Nearly at the same distance of less about 65 km to Nowosolna are two:

Boleslawow, Belchatow, Lodzkie, Poland with 511951N 185521E and

Boleslawow, Gostynin, Mazowieckie, Poland with 522648N 193240E.

The second has today 129 inhabitant , the first none.

Frank Stewner



From gilleh23 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  9 05:43:44 2013
From: gilleh23 at gmail.com (Helen Gillespie)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 08:43:44 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA genealogy - and update on Saskatachewan
	records
Message-ID: <CAPK9Va+=9V87L6pvGgw=d90Ld2VTBvnFRDTt6KmKmq_YkDjGYw@mail.gmail.com>

Might be of interest to folks wanting to do genetic genealogy.

Found this item on the web through the Anglo-Celtic Connections blogspot.(
http://anglo-celtic-connections.blogspot.ca/)



https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/beginners-guide-to-genetic-genealogy

Re Saskatchewan records

http://anglo-celtic-connections.blogspot.ca/2013/08/new-saskatchewan-records-on-ancestryca.html


John Reid is an Ottawa area genealogist with British/Irish/Canadian
sources, mostly, but does cotnribute to a broad range of genealogy info.
Occasional there is something useful for those doing Western research

Hopey you find something useful.

Helen Gillespie


From maurmike1 at verizon.net  Mon Sep  9 17:17:59 2013
From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY)
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2013 20:17:59 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>

Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland were
very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents vary
across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
the person is from Russian Poland

 

 


 

 
MIKE

 



From gerald.klatt at shaw.ca  Mon Sep  9 18:41:16 2013
From: gerald.klatt at shaw.ca (Gerald Klatt)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 18:41:16 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
Message-ID: <3720EE2DDF084255A1FC3269D54CC4A6@DEN>

Yes.

I learned German at home, from my Volynian German parents. My relatives that 
live in Germany can tell when I speak it. Certain words give it away too. I 
used  'schl?frig' instead of m?de once and they all started to laugh and 
said that was definitely more of a Volhynian expression.

Gerald







----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MIKE MCHENRY" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 5:17 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS


> Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland 
> were
> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents 
> vary
> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
> the person is from Russian Poland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MIKE
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 



From carolduff at me.com  Mon Sep  9 19:21:00 2013
From: carolduff at me.com (Carol Duff)
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2013 21:21:00 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
Message-ID: <42EE27A6-E7D0-48FE-856C-ADE518DFCB2B@me.com>

The other Germans in my family could not understand the German of my grandmother whose family were colonists in Russian Poland.

From perry1121 at aol.com  Mon Sep  9 19:21:43 2013
From: perry1121 at aol.com (Sigrid Pohl Perry)
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2013 21:21:43 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
Message-ID: <522E8237.9010303@aol.com>

Mike,

This question does not have any easy answers. Our German ancestors who 
lived in Russian Poland or Volhynia left that region anywhere between 
1900 and 1940. No Germans were allowed to remain in those regions after 
1945. Before that time, they had been migrating as colonists, farmers, 
cloth-makers, etc. perhaps from before 1800 until the time they left for 
Germany, Canada, the United States or South American countries. They 
suffered Deportation to Russia in WWI and Resettlement to northern 
Poland in 1940. Many may have had individual dialects from their native 
Germanic regions at one time, but the German language they had in common 
with each other was Luther's German from the Bible, High German, and 
that's what their children would have learned to communicate in German 
outside the home. I was surprised when I studied German in my Illinois 
high school that the language I had learned at home was basically 
"school German" because my parents had only been to Polish school with 
less than an 8th grade education. I didn't learn any kind of 
"platt-deutsch" dialect at home and was immediately fluent in the classroom.

I can say that the older relatives I have spoken with in Germany who had 
the same background as my parents, living in Russian Poland, have all 
been easy to understand, and they were amazed at how easily they 
understood me, an American. Certainly, we also shared some "domestic" 
expressions which modern Germans might not use. Germans from other parts 
of Germany who did not have this background have been more difficult to 
understand. But any surviving Germans from Russian Poland are all over 
80 years old and I don't think you could survey them. Even they have 
lived in other places for over 70 years and probably rarely encounter 
anyone from their childhood villages.

I hope some of our German subscribers to the List can comment further on 
this.

Sigrid Pohl Perry
Evanston, Illinois

On 9/9/2013 7:17 PM, MIKE MCHENRY wrote:
> Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland were
> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents vary
> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
> the person is from Russian Poland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MIKE
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>    


From Krampetz at aol.com  Mon Sep  9 19:44:16 2013
From: Krampetz at aol.com (Krampetz at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 22:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <2151f.706d5953.3f5fe180@aol.com>

Though I learned some German via dad's parents, and  his, short comments.  
I  had to unlearn some pronunciation when I took German in High  School.
My grandmother, from Dobriner land,  kept telling me I was  pronouncing
words 'wrong'.    I.E.  Door = T?r,   which in school was close to  'touur'
(bit longer 'u' than in 'tour') and my gram insisted it was  'tear'  ..  
Likewise,  most of the umlaut sounds were distinctly different.  
 
I will say the grammar killed me and any German I learned  then.   Even
Google does a terrible translation  on casual email  German.




In a message dated 09/09/13 05:18:46 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
maurmike1 at verizon.net writes:

Can  anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland  
were
very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German  accents 
vary
across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly  recognizable that
the person is from Russian  Poland



From shoning at q.com  Mon Sep  9 20:00:26 2013
From: shoning at q.com (George Shoning)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 23:00:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <522E8237.9010303@aol.com>
Message-ID: <66293579.2827276.1378782026655.JavaMail.root@md05.quartz.synacor.com>

Sigrid and Mike,

I was born in Volhynia and began my speaking of German there.  I concur with much of what you, Sigrid, have said.  A "Reichsdeutsche" will almost immediately detect my German accent as coming from Eastern Europe, because the way I pronounce my "r". I pronounce the "r" like you generally hear in the U.S. in Canada, or in Russia.  Germans within Germany proper pronounce the "r" further back in their throats.  I can do that as well as long as I concentrate on doing it, but I cannot do it without thinking about it.

George Shoning

  

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sigrid Pohl Perry" <perry1121 at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 8:21:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS

Mike,

This question does not have any easy answers. Our German ancestors who 
lived in Russian Poland or Volhynia left that region anywhere between 
1900 and 1940. No Germans were allowed to remain in those regions after 
1945. Before that time, they had been migrating as colonists, farmers, 
cloth-makers, etc. perhaps from before 1800 until the time they left for 
Germany, Canada, the United States or South American countries. They 
suffered Deportation to Russia in WWI and Resettlement to northern 
Poland in 1940. Many may have had individual dialects from their native 
Germanic regions at one time, but the German language they had in common 
with each other was Luther's German from the Bible, High German, and 
that's what their children would have learned to communicate in German 
outside the home. I was surprised when I studied German in my Illinois 
high school that the language I had learned at home was basically 
"school German" because my parents had only been to Polish school with 
less than an 8th grade education. I didn't learn any kind of 
"platt-deutsch" dialect at home and was immediately fluent in the classroom.

I can say that the older relatives I have spoken with in Germany who had 
the same background as my parents, living in Russian Poland, have all 
been easy to understand, and they were amazed at how easily they 
understood me, an American. Certainly, we also shared some "domestic" 
expressions which modern Germans might not use. Germans from other parts 
of Germany who did not have this background have been more difficult to 
understand. But any surviving Germans from Russian Poland are all over 
80 years old and I don't think you could survey them. Even they have 
lived in other places for over 70 years and probably rarely encounter 
anyone from their childhood villages.

I hope some of our German subscribers to the List can comment further on 
this.

Sigrid Pohl Perry
Evanston, Illinois

On 9/9/2013 7:17 PM, MIKE MCHENRY wrote:
> Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland were
> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents vary
> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
> the person is from Russian Poland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MIKE
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>    
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From gert.klingspohn at online.de  Tue Sep 10 00:53:25 2013
From: gert.klingspohn at online.de (Gert Klingspohn)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 09:53:25 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <522ECFF5.5090103@online.de>

Hello,

you know, that in Germany are used very different regional dialects, 
which makes it the Germans themselves difficult to understand this. I 
think here of the Bavarian or Swabian pronunciation. And so you can 
heare also, that Germans came fromRussia / Poland.

Typical features are therolling "r" (for example "Bruder" = Brrruder) 
and the pronunciation of words with umlauts (for example, "F?rster" = 
Ferster, "Schr?der" = Schreder). Many of these thingswe find also in the 
old church records that are now online. I always have a little smile 
when I find there the name "Ferster" or "Schreder" as last name. The 
correct name of this people is determined F?rster or Schr?der, but the 
pastor writes the name in the parish register, so he is called him.

Best regards
Gert


From okolewe at me.com  Tue Sep 10 06:11:19 2013
From: okolewe at me.com (Ort Kolewe)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 08:11:19 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <522ECFF5.5090103@online.de>
References: <522ECFF5.5090103@online.de>
Message-ID: <50E7C3DA-87A1-403A-8D60-52B1604475A3@me.com>

You have to consider the level of education involved  

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2013, at 2:53 AM, Gert Klingspohn <gert.klingspohn at online.de> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> you know, that in Germany are used very different regional dialects, which makes it the Germans themselves difficult to understand this. I think here of the Bavarian or Swabian pronunciation. And so you can heare also, that Germans came fromRussia / Poland.
> 
> Typical features are therolling "r" (for example "Bruder" = Brrruder) and the pronunciation of words with umlauts (for example, "F?rster" = Ferster, "Schr?der" = Schreder). Many of these thingswe find also in the old church records that are now online. I always have a little smile when I find there the name "Ferster" or "Schreder" as last name. The correct name of this people is determined F?rster or Schr?der, but the pastor writes the name in the parish register, so he is called him.
> 
> Best regards
> Gert
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From maurmike1 at verizon.net  Tue Sep 10 08:08:09 2013
From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 11:08:09 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
Message-ID: <011301ceae37$90410e60$b0c32b20$@net>

I would like thank everyone for the enlightening discussion. My grandparents
were Germans from Russian Poland (1901-2). They lived for quite some time in
Hoboken, NJ. Hoboken is one square mile in area. Prior to WWI it had an
estimated 24000 ethnic Germans. I often wonder based on list comments how
they might be accepted. Thanks again!

 


 
MIKE
maurmike1 at verizon.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] On
Behalf Of MIKE MCHENRY
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 8:18 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS

Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland were
very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents vary
across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
the person is from Russian Poland

 

 


 

 
MIKE

 

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From kerstin.petersen at mail.dk  Tue Sep 10 08:36:13 2013
From: kerstin.petersen at mail.dk (Kerstin Petersen)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 17:36:13 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Volhynian German"
Message-ID: <186EE9D7268041F08FDA5E5636C87594@Win7EjnarPC>

My grandparents ended in the northern part of Germany in Nordschlswig 1914. After 1920, after a referendum, Nordschleswig went to Denmark.
We all spoke german with our grandparents and people had no difficulty understanding the german they spoke and they did not have any funny accent.
I know the word schl?frig, but we also used m?de.

We live very close to the german border and here is a german minority.

My grandfather was called ?the russian?. Not because of his accent, but because of the way he drove his horse carriage. That was different from the danish and german farmers here in the area.


From okolewe at me.com  Tue Sep 10 08:59:13 2013
From: okolewe at me.com (Ort Kolewe)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 10:59:13 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <011301ceae37$90410e60$b0c32b20$@net>
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
	<011301ceae37$90410e60$b0c32b20$@net>
Message-ID: <EC95B346-643F-4B86-B798-E454F169751E@me.com>

As long as they did not praise the Kaiser or the Prussian sense of order or ate too much sauerkraut and wurst the Germans blended in ...but you had a lot of Italians who didn't drink beer so it was hard to fit in. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:08 AM, MIKE MCHENRY <maurmike1 at verizon.net> wrote:

> I would like thank everyone for the enlightening discussion. My grandparents
> were Germans from Russian Poland (1901-2). They lived for quite some time in
> Hoboken, NJ. Hoboken is one square mile in area. Prior to WWI it had an
> estimated 24000 ethnic Germans. I often wonder based on list comments how
> they might be accepted. Thanks again!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MIKE
> maurmike1 at verizon.net
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] On
> Behalf Of MIKE MCHENRY
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 8:18 PM
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
> 
> Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland were
> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents vary
> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
> the person is from Russian Poland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MIKE
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From lloydfriedrick at telus.net  Tue Sep 10 10:53:19 2013
From: lloydfriedrick at telus.net (Lloyd Friedrick)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 10:53:19 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Volhynian German"
In-Reply-To: <186EE9D7268041F08FDA5E5636C87594@Win7EjnarPC>
References: <186EE9D7268041F08FDA5E5636C87594@Win7EjnarPC>
Message-ID: <CD9268CE47E741F5945913F2559F3E52@LloydPC>

Hello Kerstin

Can you tell us more about the different horse arrangements with your 
fathers carriage. This interests me, my father and Uncles immigrated from 
Volhynia, Russia.
and farmed in Saskatchewan, Canada. One of my Uncles insisted on three horse 
teams, while the others used two horses.

Lloyd Friedrick, Victoria, British Columbia



-----Original Message----- 
From: Kerstin Petersen
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:36 AM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Volhynian German"

My grandparents ended in the northern part of Germany in Nordschlswig 1914. 
After 1920, after a referendum, Nordschleswig went to Denmark.
We all spoke german with our grandparents and people had no difficulty 
understanding the german they spoke and they did not have any funny accent.
I know the word schl?frig, but we also used m?de.

We live very close to the german border and here is a german minority.

My grandfather was called ?the russian?. Not because of his accent, but 
because of the way he drove his horse carriage. That was different from the 
danish and german farmers here in the area.
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 



From otto at schienke.com  Tue Sep 10 11:58:18 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:58:18 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <69493AC6-583E-4A95-A2E0-AD5450F9679C@schienke.com>

Afternoon Listers,

We humans have the ability to use sounds to communicate, a bag of mental patterns.
Sounds peculiar to local groups. 
The Volhynian settlement was too short a time period and of many mixed subgroups to have established an ethnocultural base.  Language, our familial communication sounds, are tumbling through generations to our mother and father's kitchen. Each marriage and geographical relocation, words are added and words are dropped as if a dance with many partners. How many of our computer-related terms existed fifty years ago?  People no longer live in a noble's village of five hundred years ago, developing a dialect peculiar to them.

Some basic facts.
-Language is a living organism, parts thereof constantly morphing, dying, while new sounds are being added in a speech community. Language change happens at all levels. It is natural and inevitable.

-Most, yes, most people are multilingual. Most languages exist in close contact with other languages. 

-There is no clear distinction between a language and a dialect. 

-No 'official' language existed in Germany until 1871 when Luther's 'hilly Saxon' was selected (many already owned his bible translation) for economic (nation building) reasons; High/Hoch-German/Deutsch, the dialects of the hill dwellers over the dialects of the lowland and the mountain peoples.  Several thousand 'local languages/dialects existed among the speakers of '1800's German' at the time. (low german was the economic language for almost a thousand years)  For those that think there is a standardized spoken German in use other than a written textbook umbrella. . . travel the country.

-Germanic languages: German in its various forms of local dialects plus English, Frisian, Low Saxon, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Swiss, Afrikaans and so on and on. . .   How many Sanskrit roots can we identify?  After all, it is Indo-Germanic. . . Whoops, excuse me, it is now the Indo-European family! Dagnabbit!  It morphed again.
So. . . 
We'll leave the defining and hair-pulling research to the philologists and linguists.  (what if a king spoke with a lisp?. . )
DNA research will serve as an adjunct to our dusty past.
We can ask ourselves, "Why do many of Germany's rivers have Celtic names?"

What of Mike's original question?
Our given names and surnames contain a historical past. Research them.  
Trace the past of persons in you pedigree.  These are all connections to their language sounds used.
DNA test (23andme) to establish your personal 'mixed bag' of genes.

Russian Poland has no unique spoken German, it was a mix of dialects spoken by a mixed bag of immigrants. . . Rozumiesz?
Neither does Germany, it only has an "official" written German. 
Most spoken German is a mixed bag of dialects.
Let's not get into the Germanic languages of English, American, Canadian and Australian. . . Oi vay!

Standardizing a language in a sense is destruction of history for economic or political reasons only. 
Those personal words. . . Bulldozes 'em over!

If you use words that seem peculiar to other speakers, be proud of them. Repeat them frequently!
You are bearers of historical symbols of the past. Cherish them. .  . while they last.

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From okolewe at me.com  Tue Sep 10 12:04:12 2013
From: okolewe at me.com (Ort Kolewe)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:04:12 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <69493AC6-583E-4A95-A2E0-AD5450F9679C@schienke.com>
References: <69493AC6-583E-4A95-A2E0-AD5450F9679C@schienke.com>
Message-ID: <CCAFFF3F-61F5-43B9-93B3-51BB2361F685@me.com>

Do not ignore Yidish....

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2013, at 1:58 PM, Otto <otto at schienke.com> wrote:

> Afternoon Listers,
> 
> We humans have the ability to use sounds to communicate, a bag of mental patterns.
> Sounds peculiar to local groups. 
> The Volhynian settlement was too short a time period and of many mixed subgroups to have established an ethnocultural base.  Language, our familial communication sounds, are tumbling through generations to our mother and father's kitchen. Each marriage and geographical relocation, words are added and words are dropped as if a dance with many partners. How many of our computer-related terms existed fifty years ago?  People no longer live in a noble's village of five hundred years ago, developing a dialect peculiar to them.
> 
> Some basic facts.
> -Language is a living organism, parts thereof constantly morphing, dying, while new sounds are being added in a speech community. Language change happens at all levels. It is natural and inevitable.
> 
> -Most, yes, most people are multilingual. Most languages exist in close contact with other languages. 
> 
> -There is no clear distinction between a language and a dialect. 
> 
> -No 'official' language existed in Germany until 1871 when Luther's 'hilly Saxon' was selected (many already owned his bible translation) for economic (nation building) reasons; High/Hoch-German/Deutsch, the dialects of the hill dwellers over the dialects of the lowland and the mountain peoples.  Several thousand 'local languages/dialects existed among the speakers of '1800's German' at the time. (low german was the economic language for almost a thousand years)  For those that think there is a standardized spoken German in use other than a written textbook umbrella. . . travel the country.
> 
> -Germanic languages: German in its various forms of local dialects plus English, Frisian, Low Saxon, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Swiss, Afrikaans and so on and on. . .   How many Sanskrit roots can we identify?  After all, it is Indo-Germanic. . . Whoops, excuse me, it is now the Indo-European family! Dagnabbit!  It morphed again.
> So. . . 
> We'll leave the defining and hair-pulling research to the philologists and linguists.  (what if a king spoke with a lisp?. . )
> DNA research will serve as an adjunct to our dusty past.
> We can ask ourselves, "Why do many of Germany's rivers have Celtic names?"
> 
> What of Mike's original question?
> Our given names and surnames contain a historical past. Research them.  
> Trace the past of persons in you pedigree.  These are all connections to their language sounds used.
> DNA test (23andme) to establish your personal 'mixed bag' of genes.
> 
> Russian Poland has no unique spoken German, it was a mix of dialects spoken by a mixed bag of immigrants. . . Rozumiesz?
> Neither does Germany, it only has an "official" written German. 
> Most spoken German is a mixed bag of dialects.
> Let's not get into the Germanic languages of English, American, Canadian and Australian. . . Oi vay!
> 
> Standardizing a language in a sense is destruction of history for economic or political reasons only. 
> Those personal words. . . Bulldozes 'em over!
> 
> If you use words that seem peculiar to other speakers, be proud of them. Repeat them frequently!
> You are bearers of historical symbols of the past. Cherish them. .  . while they last.
> 
> . . .   Otto
>         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>                _____________________________________
>                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From otto at schienke.com  Tue Sep 10 12:22:03 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 15:22:03 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <CCAFFF3F-61F5-43B9-93B3-51BB2361F685@me.com>
References: <69493AC6-583E-4A95-A2E0-AD5450F9679C@schienke.com>
	<CCAFFF3F-61F5-43B9-93B3-51BB2361F685@me.com>
Message-ID: <DDFA42BD-D36B-461A-BB38-180644C1612B@schienke.com>


On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:04 PM, Ort Kolewe wrote:

> Do not ignore Yidish....
> 
>> Let's not get into the Germanic languages of English, American, Canadian and Australian. . . Oi vay!


Yes! Yiddish. . . "Oi vay" is not Urdu.  :D))

Yiddish is a fusion language of various German dialects, Romany, Hebrew, Aramaic and Slavic.
It has become more of a language onto its own.

Wiki excerpt:
"In the early 20th century, especially after Socialist October Revolution in Russia, Yiddish was emerging as a major Eastern European language. Its rich literature was more widely published than ever, Yiddish theatre and Yiddish filmwere booming, and it for a time achieved status as one of the official languages of the Ukrainian People's Republic, the Belarusian and the short-lived Galician SSR, and theJewish Autonomous Oblast. Educational autonomy for Jews in several countries (notably Poland) after World War I led to an increase in formal Yiddish-language education, more uniform orthography, and to the 1925 founding of the Yiddish Scientific Institute, YIVO. Yiddish emerged as the national language of a large Jewish community in Eastern Europe that rejected Zionism and sought Jewish cultural autonomy in Europe.[citation needed] It also contended with Modern Hebrew as a literary language among Zionists. InVilna there was intense debate over which language should take primacy, Hebrew or Yiddish[13]
Yiddish changed significantly during the 20th century.Michael Wex writes, "As increasing numbers of Yiddish speakers moved from the Slavic-speaking East to Western Europe and the Americas in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, they were so quick to jettison Slavic vocabulary that the most prominent Yiddish writers of the time?the founders of modern Yiddish literature, who were still living in Slavic-speaking countries?revised the printed editions of their oeuvres to eliminate obsolete and 'unnecessary' Slavisms."[14] The vocabulary used in Israel absorbed many Modern Hebrew words, and there was a similar increase in the English component of Yiddish in the United States and, to a lesser extent, the United Kingdom. This has resulted in some difficulty in communication between Yiddish speakers from Israel and those from other countries."

. . .   Otto
        " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
               _____________________________________
                 "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From walcar at mwt.net  Wed Sep 11 07:03:13 2013
From: walcar at mwt.net (Walter Gust)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:03:13 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net><011301ceae37$90410e60$b0c32b20$@net>
	<EC95B346-643F-4B86-B798-E454F169751E@me.com>
Message-ID: <CE1A693B31FE410C9EF068267B042A9B@WALTER2800>

My late mother once told me that during WWI while the Allies had blockaded 
Germany, depriving  non-combatants food, in violation of the rules of war, 
her German Reformed pastor near Stratford, Wisconsin, spoke out against this 
from the pulpit, and apparently got away with this.

Walter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ort Kolewe" <okolewe at me.com>
To: "MIKE MCHENRY" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
Cc: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS


> As long as they did not praise the Kaiser or the Prussian sense of order 
> or ate too much sauerkraut and wurst the Germans blended in ...but you had 
> a lot of Italians who didn't drink beer so it was hard to fit in.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:08 AM, MIKE MCHENRY <maurmike1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I would like thank everyone for the enlightening discussion. My 
>> grandparents
>> were Germans from Russian Poland (1901-2). They lived for quite some time 
>> in
>> Hoboken, NJ. Hoboken is one square mile in area. Prior to WWI it had an
>> estimated 24000 ethnic Germans. I often wonder based on list comments how
>> they might be accepted. Thanks again!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> MIKE
>> maurmike1 at verizon.net
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf Of MIKE MCHENRY
>> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 8:18 PM
>> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
>>
>> Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland 
>> were
>> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents 
>> vary
>> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
>> the person is from Russian Poland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> MIKE
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 




From walcar at mwt.net  Wed Sep 11 07:32:03 2013
From: walcar at mwt.net (Walter Gust)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:32:03 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
Message-ID: <CEBB70419CB64DDAA07678CBFA0CD38D@WALTER2800>

My late uncle, Julius Lau from Tilsit or nearby, a Russo-Japanese War 
veteran, had the most unique accent I have ever heard in my lifetime. Wish I 
had a means of describing it.

Walter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MIKE MCHENRY" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 7:17 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS


> Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland 
> were
> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents 
> vary
> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
> the person is from Russian Poland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MIKE
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 




From otto at schienke.com  Wed Sep 11 08:52:06 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:52:06 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
Message-ID: <58D6967F-FBD4-458B-B1C3-59FB887F15AD@schienke.com>

Good morning Listers!
The question has been asked many times.  I've wanted to submit a reply but did not take time to do so. . . so many e-letters to type. 
But then, perhaps I just procrastinate.

I know there are many on the List and also SGGEE members who have taken the test I am discussing here, one I feel is a helper to paper-trail research. The participants can speak for themselves. I am willing to answer questions limited to this test and its use but will do so privately.

I am involved in both paper-trail and DNA research and receive the same delight from a new paper record of a past relative of mine as from a DNA match without a paper. The signature of a g.g.g. grandfather on paper, Wow.-the DNA genetic shift because of just one marital union, Wow.
This is today, we cannot have the chicken without the egg. Both is better. Like a right and left hand washing dishes. SGGEE and 23andMe, a symbiotic relationship.

The question that has come to the fore ofttimes, "Of what value is DNA testing?
There must be a value because the field is growing tremendously.

DNA testing proves to be an adjunct to paper-trail research.
Paper-trail research proves to be an adjunct to DNA trail research.
I see no difference between the two. . . except DNA records are more accurate.

Paper-trail offers a written legal pedigree, that is, in accordance with all the relevant rules.
DNA offers a biological pedigree (we must view ourselves as a lump of information, code; no bluffing in the code).
I always think of a stateside cartoon series (the funny paper) of the past; Popeye, the sailer-man and his saying, "I yam what I yam and tha's all what I yam."  So goes it with DNA testing.

"What benefit is DNA testing for paper-trail genealogy?"
Civil paper records "state" I am my father's son. They are my legal identification.
*note: A woman on the DNA site enjoyed the test so much (all of that info!) but not possessing a Y chromosome (female are X~X, no male Y~X) badgered her paper-trail father into taking the test, paid for it as a stimulus. He finally agreed. She waited impatiently for the results-they finally arrived!  No match. . . not your father. . .Time to talk to Mom. 
DNA biological records prove it out. They are biological identification.
DNA testing has released many persons wrongly convicted on criminal charges.

Types of DNA testing:
"STR" testing for "Haplotype" will prove out that I am my son's father.
Short Tandem Repeats -STR, a favorite in forensics.

and 23andMe spit-testing
"SNP" testing for "Haplogroup" (23andme) will provide a 23 chromosome, 1,000,000 + markers big picture test leading into the distant past.
Single Nucleotide polymorphism -SNPs,  valuable in study of disease development and critical in personalized medicine. For genealogy purposes it provides a 23 chromosome based view of what genes a person is knit from. 

-It creates a "Y-Haplogroup", based on the Y chromosome which contains markers passed from father to father to father into the distant past.

My Y-Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a1*, the base group is "R" and each character after the initial R represents a mutation, for example, 1-b-1-b-2-a-1-a-1-*,  the asterisk marks an as of yet unclassified mutation.  I refer to it as Mother Nature's latest software code update.

-it creates a mtDNA-Haplogroup, based on the DNA of mitochondria in the red blood cells, passed from mother to mother to mother and so on into the distant past.

My mtDNA-Haplogroup is H1, the base group is "H" and each character after the initial H represents a mutation.

So. . . What has it offered me besides my health scenario. . . (Yo! Mon!-Sheesh, I thought so. . . now I know it for sure and live accordingly)
Health includes Health Risks, Drug Response, Inherited Conditions, Traits, Health Tools

DNA testing pointed me to the shorelines of the North Sea and beyond, laying claim to being an ancient inhabitant of Doggerland, now lying beneath the North Sea since the last glacial meltdown.  This immediately redirected my paper-trail research to the Baltic Sea coast and west to the North Sea coast.  The "Cluster Effect" came to the fore as I searched for similar peoples moving along the coast to eastern territories. I am making headway-"can't know where you are going until you know where you coming from."

What else did genetic testing with 23andme provide for me?
-It provided me with my "Ancestry Composition"- My mixed gene bag of who I really am. Amazing!
-It provided me with my "Maternal Line" History (research can also be conducted online (google, Wiki,etc) using just the haplogroup characters)
-It provided me with my "Paternal Line" History (ditto)
-It provide me with my "Neanderthal Ancestry" (2.6%. . . my deceased wife always accused me of carrying some markers-I accused her family of carrying many markers. . . her brother tested Y-haplogroup R1b1b2a1a1. . . @ 2.9% Neanderthal (yeh! I knew it!)
Well, I at least remain the latest haplogroup update. . .*)

-"Ancestry Tools" box has a variety of algorithms to play with-I like "Global Similarity."

-It provided me (to date)  "DNA Relatives.", with 766 biological relatives.
Some are paper-trail verified-(They must also be spit-tested and part of the database group.)
A few verified paper-trailers follow:
I ran 23andme application ("Family Traits" algorithm) and tested myself against myself. . . Yup! 100% me.  "I yam what I yam and tha's all what I yam." 
I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my son. . .50% me. (it is my son!)
I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my first cousin. .  Yup! 1st cousin maternal side!
I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 3rd cousin. . . 3rd cousin he is!

-Without a present day paper-trail ID, in  "DNA Relatives.", Norman Radke rates as a 5th cousin, his offspring rate as cousins, Donald Miller rates as a 5th cousin, Earl Schultz rates as a 10th cousin and so on. Albert Muth and I are very similar genetically but not part of a direct line of descent even though Albert is also a cousin to Donald Miller. . . and Meta Fife.

This is just the beginning. Many more names will be added to the  "DNA Relatives" relative list.  Once a DNA connection is established, contact must be established and a paper-trail connection needs to be made.  In checking the 23andme site for the number of cousins, I noticed another close female relative I have the paper-trail for. . . Gotta write to her.

-It provides me with my "Gene Comparison" to the rest of the 23andme group. ( birds of a feather do flock together)

It provides me with my "Family Traits", an application, (algorithm) which I use to compare my genes with all who have agreed to share with me at 23andme. Your  actual DNA code is never seen by others and vice-versa.  23andme computer algorithms do the work for you. Quickly.

-One can also participate in their research. . .  With paper-trail and DNA trail pursuits, my time is limited.

-A "Community Site" and "Blog" exists for answers to questions.

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From christianlucht at googlemail.com  Wed Sep 11 08:52:24 2013
From: christianlucht at googlemail.com (Christian Lucht)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 17:52:24 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <CEBB70419CB64DDAA07678CBFA0CD38D@WALTER2800>
References: <00b301ceadbb$3598f7b0$a0cae710$@net>
	<CEBB70419CB64DDAA07678CBFA0CD38D@WALTER2800>
Message-ID: <CAMQ8VqgHhqE7u298fzJ74W=wqyg=jT4ENUP4xTdu9d-Oet9L5A@mail.gmail.com>

This is interesting Walter. Do you remember any stories your late uncle had
mentioned from his experiance during the Russian-Japanese War? I too have
ancestors who had to serve in this war but don?t know many details. One had
mentionet fighting with a bayonet.
I have only heard phrases since I?ve never met this generation in person
and the ones who did, did not pay attention enough to keep such memories
alive or even writing them down.
Back to the topic: Those who still have the opportunity to preserve the
eastern accents, please record them for the ones to follow us in searching
family history!
Christian



2013/9/11 Walter Gust <walcar at mwt.net>

> My late uncle, Julius Lau from Tilsit or nearby, a Russo-Japanese War
> veteran, had the most unique accent I have ever heard in my lifetime. Wish
> I had a means of describing it.
>
> Walter
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "MIKE MCHENRY" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
> To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.**sggee.org<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> >
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 7:17 PM
>
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
>
>
>  Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland
>> were
>> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents
>> vary
>> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
>> the person is from Russian Poland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> MIKE
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/**listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia<https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/**listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia<https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia>
>


From siegschewe at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 11 10:15:48 2013
From: siegschewe at hotmail.com (Sieg Schewe)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:15:48 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <BLU168-W80FFC6D079080E29BB4B5ED8390@phx.gbl>

Re Germans from Russian Poland Ukraine.
I have named the German language from that area Volhynian German
as they mixed many Polish, Russian & Ukrainian words into their German daily language.
 
Sieg Schewe 		 	   		  

From wg7 at theunion.net  Wed Sep 11 10:45:02 2013
From: wg7 at theunion.net (wg7)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 10:45:02 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124,
	Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1378839600.3286.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1378839600.3286.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <2D34BFFECECC4067944770389C95B33B@WillPC>

Mike, I along with my sister Lilly were born in Volhynia.  We have recently 
translated  into English and edited a journal that was written by my father 
in German or should I say East Prussian dialect.  It must be remembered that 
the modern "High German" language did not evolve until after the 
consolidation of  of the German states in 1870.  Prior to that point in 
history the "Germanic settlers " had their own dialect and expressions that 
came with them from whatever province or state that they originally came 
from but there was enough commonality between them so they could understand 
each other.
Now while the settlers were occupied with their own priorities the German 
people back in the homeland refined and standardized the language resulting 
in subtle and sometimes not so subtle differences  that when spoken or 
written by Volhynian settlers sounded and still sound different.  So it is 
that sometimes it became necessary for one who learned the new "High German" 
to ask for clarification from the now labeled "Volksdeutsche" person.
My father's journal was written with the old East Prussian style and 
expressions and therefore the translation process was or is not as simple as 
translating from "Hoch Deutch" to modern English.  This journal will shortly 
became available to the general public and should be of particular interest 
to SGGEE members because it describes in gripping detail what life was like 
for the settlers prior to 1915 and thereafter.  Since my forefathers settled 
in EAST VOLHYNIA
-----Original Message----- 
From: ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 12:00 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue 7

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS (MIKE MCHENRY)
   2. "Volhynian German" (Kerstin Petersen)
   3. Re: GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS (Ort Kolewe)
   4. Re: "Volhynian German" (Lloyd Friedrick)
   5.  GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS (Otto)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 11:08:09 -0400
From: "MIKE MCHENRY" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
To: "'MIKE MCHENRY'" <maurmike1 at verizon.net>,
<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <011301ceae37$90410e60$b0c32b20$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I would like thank everyone for the enlightening discussion. My grandparents
were Germans from Russian Poland (1901-2). They lived for quite some time in
Hoboken, NJ. Hoboken is one square mile in area. Prior to WWI it had an
estimated 24000 ethnic Germans. I often wonder based on list comments how
they might be accepted. Thanks again!





MIKE
maurmike1 at verizon.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] On
Behalf Of MIKE MCHENRY
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 8:18 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS

Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland were
very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents vary
across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
the person is from Russian Poland









MIKE



_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 17:36:13 +0200
From: "Kerstin Petersen" <kerstin.petersen at mail.dk>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Volhynian German"
Message-ID: <186EE9D7268041F08FDA5E5636C87594 at Win7EjnarPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

My grandparents ended in the northern part of Germany in Nordschlswig 1914. 
After 1920, after a referendum, Nordschleswig went to Denmark.
We all spoke german with our grandparents and people had no difficulty 
understanding the german they spoke and they did not have any funny accent.
I know the word schl?frig, but we also used m?de.

We live very close to the german border and here is a german minority.

My grandfather was called ?the russian?. Not because of his accent, but 
because of the way he drove his horse carriage. That was different from the 
danish and german farmers here in the area.


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 10:59:13 -0500
From: Ort Kolewe <okolewe at me.com>
To: MIKE MCHENRY <maurmike1 at verizon.net>
Cc: "ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org"
<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <EC95B346-643F-4B86-B798-E454F169751E at me.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

As long as they did not praise the Kaiser or the Prussian sense of order or 
ate too much sauerkraut and wurst the Germans blended in ...but you had a 
lot of Italians who didn't drink beer so it was hard to fit in.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:08 AM, MIKE MCHENRY <maurmike1 at verizon.net> wrote:

> I would like thank everyone for the enlightening discussion. My 
> grandparents
> were Germans from Russian Poland (1901-2). They lived for quite some time 
> in
> Hoboken, NJ. Hoboken is one square mile in area. Prior to WWI it had an
> estimated 24000 ethnic Germans. I often wonder based on list comments how
> they might be accepted. Thanks again!
>
>
>
>
>
> MIKE
> maurmike1 at verizon.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of MIKE MCHENRY
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 8:18 PM
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
>
> Can anyone tell me if the accents of German people from Russian Poland 
> were
> very different from Germans of Germany? I recognize that German accents 
> vary
> across Germany. I guess what I'm asking is it instantly recognizable that
> the person is from Russian Poland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MIKE
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 10:53:19 -0700
From: "Lloyd Friedrick" <lloydfriedrick at telus.net>
To: "Kerstin Petersen" <kerstin.petersen at mail.dk>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Volhynian German"
Message-ID: <CD9268CE47E741F5945913F2559F3E52 at LloydPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original

Hello Kerstin

Can you tell us more about the different horse arrangements with your
fathers carriage. This interests me, my father and Uncles immigrated from
Volhynia, Russia.
and farmed in Saskatchewan, Canada. One of my Uncles insisted on three horse
teams, while the others used two horses.

Lloyd Friedrick, Victoria, British Columbia



-----Original Message----- 
From: Kerstin Petersen
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:36 AM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Volhynian German"

My grandparents ended in the northern part of Germany in Nordschlswig 1914.
After 1920, after a referendum, Nordschleswig went to Denmark.
We all spoke german with our grandparents and people had no difficulty
understanding the german they spoke and they did not have any funny accent.
I know the word schl?frig, but we also used m?de.

We live very close to the german border and here is a german minority.

My grandfather was called ?the russian?. Not because of his accent, but
because of the way he drove his horse carriage. That was different from the
danish and german farmers here in the area.
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:58:18 -0400
From: Otto <otto at schienke.com>
To: SGGEElistserv list <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <69493AC6-583E-4A95-A2E0-AD5450F9679C at schienke.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Afternoon Listers,

We humans have the ability to use sounds to communicate, a bag of mental 
patterns.
Sounds peculiar to local groups.
The Volhynian settlement was too short a time period and of many mixed 
subgroups to have established an ethnocultural base.  Language, our familial 
communication sounds, are tumbling through generations to our mother and 
father's kitchen. Each marriage and geographical relocation, words are added 
and words are dropped as if a dance with many partners. How many of our 
computer-related terms existed fifty years ago?  People no longer live in a 
noble's village of five hundred years ago, developing a dialect peculiar to 
them.

Some basic facts.
-Language is a living organism, parts thereof constantly morphing, dying, 
while new sounds are being added in a speech community. Language change 
happens at all levels. It is natural and inevitable.

-Most, yes, most people are multilingual. Most languages exist in close 
contact with other languages.

-There is no clear distinction between a language and a dialect.

-No 'official' language existed in Germany until 1871 when Luther's 'hilly 
Saxon' was selected (many already owned his bible translation) for economic 
(nation building) reasons; High/Hoch-German/Deutsch, the dialects of the 
hill dwellers over the dialects of the lowland and the mountain peoples. 
Several thousand 'local languages/dialects existed among the speakers of 
'1800's German' at the time. (low german was the economic language for 
almost a thousand years)  For those that think there is a standardized 
spoken German in use other than a written textbook umbrella. . . travel the 
country.

-Germanic languages: German in its various forms of local dialects plus 
English, Frisian, Low Saxon, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Swiss, 
Afrikaans and so on and on. . .   How many Sanskrit roots can we identify? 
After all, it is Indo-Germanic. . . Whoops, excuse me, it is now the 
Indo-European family! Dagnabbit!  It morphed again.
So. . .
We'll leave the defining and hair-pulling research to the philologists and 
linguists.  (what if a king spoke with a lisp?. . )
DNA research will serve as an adjunct to our dusty past.
We can ask ourselves, "Why do many of Germany's rivers have Celtic names?"

What of Mike's original question?
Our given names and surnames contain a historical past. Research them.
Trace the past of persons in you pedigree.  These are all connections to 
their language sounds used.
DNA test (23andme) to establish your personal 'mixed bag' of genes.

Russian Poland has no unique spoken German, it was a mix of dialects spoken 
by a mixed bag of immigrants. . . Rozumiesz?
Neither does Germany, it only has an "official" written German.
Most spoken German is a mixed bag of dialects.
Let's not get into the Germanic languages of English, American, Canadian and 
Australian. . . Oi vay!

Standardizing a language in a sense is destruction of history for economic 
or political reasons only.
Those personal words. . . Bulldozes 'em over!

If you use words that seem peculiar to other speakers, be proud of them. 
Repeat them frequently!
You are bearers of historical symbols of the past. Cherish them. .  . while 
they last.

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the:
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Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html


------------------------------

End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue 7
*************************************************** 



From dbuss at rogers.com  Wed Sep 11 12:10:18 2013
From: dbuss at rogers.com (Dan Buss)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:10:18 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
References: <58D6967F-FBD4-458B-B1C3-59FB887F15AD@schienke.com>
Message-ID: <8523ECDF5DAE40FB981785F627AFE2EE@DANIEL>

Hello Otto,
Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the major 
question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or me to the past 
people long gone without them having provided a sample spit, or 
whatever?????.
Dan B.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>
To: "SGGEElistserv list" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:52 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?


> Good morning Listers!
> The question has been asked many times.  I've wanted to submit a reply but 
> did not take time to do so. . . so many e-letters to type.
> But then, perhaps I just procrastinate.
>
> I know there are many on the List and also SGGEE members who have taken 
> the test I am discussing here, one I feel is a helper to paper-trail 
> research. The participants can speak for themselves. I am willing to 
> answer questions limited to this test and its use but will do so 
> privately.
>
> I am involved in both paper-trail and DNA research and receive the same 
> delight from a new paper record of a past relative of mine as from a DNA 
> match without a paper. The signature of a g.g.g. grandfather on paper, 
> Wow.-the DNA genetic shift because of just one marital union, Wow.
> This is today, we cannot have the chicken without the egg. Both is better. 
> Like a right and left hand washing dishes. SGGEE and 23andMe, a symbiotic 
> relationship.
>
> The question that has come to the fore ofttimes, "Of what value is DNA 
> testing?
> There must be a value because the field is growing tremendously.
>
> DNA testing proves to be an adjunct to paper-trail research.
> Paper-trail research proves to be an adjunct to DNA trail research.
> I see no difference between the two. . . except DNA records are more 
> accurate.
>
> Paper-trail offers a written legal pedigree, that is, in accordance with 
> all the relevant rules.
> DNA offers a biological pedigree (we must view ourselves as a lump of 
> information, code; no bluffing in the code).
> I always think of a stateside cartoon series (the funny paper) of the 
> past; Popeye, the sailer-man and his saying, "I yam what I yam and tha's 
> all what I yam."  So goes it with DNA testing.
>
> "What benefit is DNA testing for paper-trail genealogy?"
> Civil paper records "state" I am my father's son. They are my legal 
> identification.
> *note: A woman on the DNA site enjoyed the test so much (all of that 
> info!) but not possessing a Y chromosome (female are X~X, no male Y~X) 
> badgered her paper-trail father into taking the test, paid for it as a 
> stimulus. He finally agreed. She waited impatiently for the results-they 
> finally arrived!  No match. . . not your father. . .Time to talk to Mom.
> DNA biological records prove it out. They are biological identification.
> DNA testing has released many persons wrongly convicted on criminal 
> charges.
>
> Types of DNA testing:
> "STR" testing for "Haplotype" will prove out that I am my son's father.
> Short Tandem Repeats -STR, a favorite in forensics.
>
> and 23andMe spit-testing
> "SNP" testing for "Haplogroup" (23andme) will provide a 23 chromosome, 
> 1,000,000 + markers big picture test leading into the distant past.
> Single Nucleotide polymorphism -SNPs,  valuable in study of disease 
> development and critical in personalized medicine. For genealogy purposes 
> it provides a 23 chromosome based view of what genes a person is knit 
> from.
>
> -It creates a "Y-Haplogroup", based on the Y chromosome which contains 
> markers passed from father to father to father into the distant past.
>
> My Y-Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a1*, the base group is "R" and each character 
> after the initial R represents a mutation, for example, 
> 1-b-1-b-2-a-1-a-1-*,  the asterisk marks an as of yet unclassified 
> mutation.  I refer to it as Mother Nature's latest software code update.
>
> -it creates a mtDNA-Haplogroup, based on the DNA of mitochondria in the 
> red blood cells, passed from mother to mother to mother and so on into the 
> distant past.
>
> My mtDNA-Haplogroup is H1, the base group is "H" and each character after 
> the initial H represents a mutation.
>
> So. . . What has it offered me besides my health scenario. . . (Yo! 
> Mon!-Sheesh, I thought so. . . now I know it for sure and live 
> accordingly)
> Health includes Health Risks, Drug Response, Inherited Conditions, Traits, 
> Health Tools
>
> DNA testing pointed me to the shorelines of the North Sea and beyond, 
> laying claim to being an ancient inhabitant of Doggerland, now lying 
> beneath the North Sea since the last glacial meltdown.  This immediately 
> redirected my paper-trail research to the Baltic Sea coast and west to the 
> North Sea coast.  The "Cluster Effect" came to the fore as I searched for 
> similar peoples moving along the coast to eastern territories. I am making 
> headway-"can't know where you are going until you know where you coming 
> from."
>
> What else did genetic testing with 23andme provide for me?
> -It provided me with my "Ancestry Composition"- My mixed gene bag of who I 
> really am. Amazing!
> -It provided me with my "Maternal Line" History (research can also be 
> conducted online (google, Wiki,etc) using just the haplogroup characters)
> -It provided me with my "Paternal Line" History (ditto)
> -It provide me with my "Neanderthal Ancestry" (2.6%. . . my deceased wife 
> always accused me of carrying some markers-I accused her family of 
> carrying many markers. . . her brother tested Y-haplogroup R1b1b2a1a1. . . 
> @ 2.9% Neanderthal (yeh! I knew it!)
> Well, I at least remain the latest haplogroup update. . .*)
>
> -"Ancestry Tools" box has a variety of algorithms to play with-I like 
> "Global Similarity."
>
> -It provided me (to date)  "DNA Relatives.", with 766 biological 
> relatives.
> Some are paper-trail verified-(They must also be spit-tested and part of 
> the database group.)
> A few verified paper-trailers follow:
> I ran 23andme application ("Family Traits" algorithm) and tested myself 
> against myself. . . Yup! 100% me.  "I yam what I yam and tha's all what I 
> yam."
> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my son. . 
> .50% me. (it is my son!)
> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my first 
> cousin. .  Yup! 1st cousin maternal side!
> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 3rd 
> cousin. . . 3rd cousin he is!
>
> -Without a present day paper-trail ID, in  "DNA Relatives.", Norman Radke 
> rates as a 5th cousin, his offspring rate as cousins, Donald Miller rates 
> as a 5th cousin, Earl Schultz rates as a 10th cousin and so on. Albert 
> Muth and I are very similar genetically but not part of a direct line of 
> descent even though Albert is also a cousin to Donald Miller. . . and Meta 
> Fife.
>
> This is just the beginning. Many more names will be added to the  "DNA 
> Relatives" relative list.  Once a DNA connection is established, contact 
> must be established and a paper-trail connection needs to be made.  In 
> checking the 23andme site for the number of cousins, I noticed another 
> close female relative I have the paper-trail for. . . Gotta write to her.
>
> -It provides me with my "Gene Comparison" to the rest of the 23andme 
> group. ( birds of a feather do flock together)
>
> It provides me with my "Family Traits", an application, (algorithm) which 
> I use to compare my genes with all who have agreed to share with me at 
> 23andme. Your  actual DNA code is never seen by others and vice-versa. 
> 23andme computer algorithms do the work for you. Quickly.
>
> -One can also participate in their research. . .  With paper-trail and DNA 
> trail pursuits, my time is limited.
>
> -A "Community Site" and "Blog" exists for answers to questions.
>
> . . .   Otto
>         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>                _____________________________________
>                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> 




From gerald.klatt at shaw.ca  Wed Sep 11 12:25:13 2013
From: gerald.klatt at shaw.ca (Gerald Klatt)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 12:25:13 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
References: <58D6967F-FBD4-458B-B1C3-59FB887F15AD@schienke.com>
	<8523ECDF5DAE40FB981785F627AFE2EE@DANIEL>
Message-ID: <2F56D155472D4C4F8304433F175CA08F@DEN>

Same question from me. I eagerly wait the reply.

Gerald

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Buss" <dbuss at rogers.com>
To: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>; "SGGEElistserv list" 
<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?


> Hello Otto,
> Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the major 
> question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or me to the 
> past people long gone without them having provided a sample spit, or 
> whatever?????.
> Dan B.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>
> To: "SGGEElistserv list" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:52 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>
>
>> Good morning Listers!
>> The question has been asked many times.  I've wanted to submit a reply 
>> but did not take time to do so. . . so many e-letters to type.
>> But then, perhaps I just procrastinate.
>>
>> I know there are many on the List and also SGGEE members who have taken 
>> the test I am discussing here, one I feel is a helper to paper-trail 
>> research. The participants can speak for themselves. I am willing to 
>> answer questions limited to this test and its use but will do so 
>> privately.
>>
>> I am involved in both paper-trail and DNA research and receive the same 
>> delight from a new paper record of a past relative of mine as from a DNA 
>> match without a paper. The signature of a g.g.g. grandfather on paper, 
>> Wow.-the DNA genetic shift because of just one marital union, Wow.
>> This is today, we cannot have the chicken without the egg. Both is 
>> better. Like a right and left hand washing dishes. SGGEE and 23andMe, a 
>> symbiotic relationship.
>>
>> The question that has come to the fore ofttimes, "Of what value is DNA 
>> testing?
>> There must be a value because the field is growing tremendously.
>>
>> DNA testing proves to be an adjunct to paper-trail research.
>> Paper-trail research proves to be an adjunct to DNA trail research.
>> I see no difference between the two. . . except DNA records are more 
>> accurate.
>>
>> Paper-trail offers a written legal pedigree, that is, in accordance with 
>> all the relevant rules.
>> DNA offers a biological pedigree (we must view ourselves as a lump of 
>> information, code; no bluffing in the code).
>> I always think of a stateside cartoon series (the funny paper) of the 
>> past; Popeye, the sailer-man and his saying, "I yam what I yam and tha's 
>> all what I yam."  So goes it with DNA testing.
>>
>> "What benefit is DNA testing for paper-trail genealogy?"
>> Civil paper records "state" I am my father's son. They are my legal 
>> identification.
>> *note: A woman on the DNA site enjoyed the test so much (all of that 
>> info!) but not possessing a Y chromosome (female are X~X, no male Y~X) 
>> badgered her paper-trail father into taking the test, paid for it as a 
>> stimulus. He finally agreed. She waited impatiently for the results-they 
>> finally arrived!  No match. . . not your father. . .Time to talk to Mom.
>> DNA biological records prove it out. They are biological identification.
>> DNA testing has released many persons wrongly convicted on criminal 
>> charges.
>>
>> Types of DNA testing:
>> "STR" testing for "Haplotype" will prove out that I am my son's father.
>> Short Tandem Repeats -STR, a favorite in forensics.
>>
>> and 23andMe spit-testing
>> "SNP" testing for "Haplogroup" (23andme) will provide a 23 chromosome, 
>> 1,000,000 + markers big picture test leading into the distant past.
>> Single Nucleotide polymorphism -SNPs,  valuable in study of disease 
>> development and critical in personalized medicine. For genealogy purposes 
>> it provides a 23 chromosome based view of what genes a person is knit 
>> from.
>>
>> -It creates a "Y-Haplogroup", based on the Y chromosome which contains 
>> markers passed from father to father to father into the distant past.
>>
>> My Y-Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a1*, the base group is "R" and each character 
>> after the initial R represents a mutation, for example, 
>> 1-b-1-b-2-a-1-a-1-*,  the asterisk marks an as of yet unclassified 
>> mutation.  I refer to it as Mother Nature's latest software code update.
>>
>> -it creates a mtDNA-Haplogroup, based on the DNA of mitochondria in the 
>> red blood cells, passed from mother to mother to mother and so on into 
>> the distant past.
>>
>> My mtDNA-Haplogroup is H1, the base group is "H" and each character after 
>> the initial H represents a mutation.
>>
>> So. . . What has it offered me besides my health scenario. . . (Yo! 
>> Mon!-Sheesh, I thought so. . . now I know it for sure and live 
>> accordingly)
>> Health includes Health Risks, Drug Response, Inherited Conditions, 
>> Traits, Health Tools
>>
>> DNA testing pointed me to the shorelines of the North Sea and beyond, 
>> laying claim to being an ancient inhabitant of Doggerland, now lying 
>> beneath the North Sea since the last glacial meltdown.  This immediately 
>> redirected my paper-trail research to the Baltic Sea coast and west to 
>> the North Sea coast.  The "Cluster Effect" came to the fore as I searched 
>> for similar peoples moving along the coast to eastern territories. I am 
>> making headway-"can't know where you are going until you know where you 
>> coming from."
>>
>> What else did genetic testing with 23andme provide for me?
>> -It provided me with my "Ancestry Composition"- My mixed gene bag of who 
>> I really am. Amazing!
>> -It provided me with my "Maternal Line" History (research can also be 
>> conducted online (google, Wiki,etc) using just the haplogroup characters)
>> -It provided me with my "Paternal Line" History (ditto)
>> -It provide me with my "Neanderthal Ancestry" (2.6%. . . my deceased wife 
>> always accused me of carrying some markers-I accused her family of 
>> carrying many markers. . . her brother tested Y-haplogroup R1b1b2a1a1. . 
>> . @ 2.9% Neanderthal (yeh! I knew it!)
>> Well, I at least remain the latest haplogroup update. . .*)
>>
>> -"Ancestry Tools" box has a variety of algorithms to play with-I like 
>> "Global Similarity."
>>
>> -It provided me (to date)  "DNA Relatives.", with 766 biological 
>> relatives.
>> Some are paper-trail verified-(They must also be spit-tested and part of 
>> the database group.)
>> A few verified paper-trailers follow:
>> I ran 23andme application ("Family Traits" algorithm) and tested myself 
>> against myself. . . Yup! 100% me.  "I yam what I yam and tha's all what I 
>> yam."
>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my son. . 
>> .50% me. (it is my son!)
>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my first 
>> cousin. .  Yup! 1st cousin maternal side!
>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 3rd 
>> cousin. . . 3rd cousin he is!
>>
>> -Without a present day paper-trail ID, in  "DNA Relatives.", Norman Radke 
>> rates as a 5th cousin, his offspring rate as cousins, Donald Miller rates 
>> as a 5th cousin, Earl Schultz rates as a 10th cousin and so on. Albert 
>> Muth and I are very similar genetically but not part of a direct line of 
>> descent even though Albert is also a cousin to Donald Miller. . . and 
>> Meta Fife.
>>
>> This is just the beginning. Many more names will be added to the  "DNA 
>> Relatives" relative list.  Once a DNA connection is established, contact 
>> must be established and a paper-trail connection needs to be made.  In 
>> checking the 23andme site for the number of cousins, I noticed another 
>> close female relative I have the paper-trail for. . . Gotta write to her.
>>
>> -It provides me with my "Gene Comparison" to the rest of the 23andme 
>> group. ( birds of a feather do flock together)
>>
>> It provides me with my "Family Traits", an application, (algorithm) which 
>> I use to compare my genes with all who have agreed to share with me at 
>> 23andme. Your  actual DNA code is never seen by others and vice-versa. 
>> 23andme computer algorithms do the work for you. Quickly.
>>
>> -One can also participate in their research. . .  With paper-trail and 
>> DNA trail pursuits, my time is limited.
>>
>> -A "Community Site" and "Blog" exists for answers to questions.
>>
>> . . .   Otto
>>         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>>                _____________________________________
>>                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 



From Krampetz at aol.com  Wed Sep 11 12:43:39 2013
From: Krampetz at aol.com (Krampetz at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:43:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia - Dialects & Google
	tranlations
Message-ID: <4a4e5.d178b06.3f6221eb@aol.com>

This discussion appears to show that German is still a loose  language.
  I've seen this when attempting to use Google to translate German 
  emails from another email list.   They are nearly  unintelligible.  Or
  as another put it,  "... different dialects.... just  enough to understand
  each other"
  Google does a fine job on nearly all other languages, and does  on rare
  occasions to a credible job on German articles written (I'm  guessing)
  in 'High German'
 
  Is this the reason that casual discussions, such as  emails,  are 
difficult
  to translate?   Have others run into this too?
 
   
 

From otto at schienke.com  Wed Sep 11 13:14:06 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:14:06 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
In-Reply-To: <8523ECDF5DAE40FB981785F627AFE2EE@DANIEL>
References: <58D6967F-FBD4-458B-B1C3-59FB887F15AD@schienke.com>
	<8523ECDF5DAE40FB981785F627AFE2EE@DANIEL>
Message-ID: <6964FA46-68F8-4B01-A292-02DF0372EE85@schienke.com>


On Sep 11, 2013, at 3:10 PM, Dan Buss wrote:

> Hello Otto,
> Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample spit, or whatever?????.
> Dan B.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>
> To: "SGGEElistserv list" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:52 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
> 

Afternoon Dan and Gerry,

Lack of understanding does not alter the process. We have survived through millennia, passing our code to next of kin so we can ask these questions.

We are working with computer "models" created in a specific database.
On 23andme Ancestry Composition none of the ethnic models are less than 500 years old. Modern transportation has muddled the genetic code to a point where it is difficult to point at a precise vicinity.  We are all over 99% the same.

Example: Neanderthal. (Homo neanderthalensis)  A human group wandering the European continent some 35,000 years or more ago. Examples of them were found in Neander's valley near D?sseldorf. Bones are ground, DNA extracted, code placed in a database and an algorithm (a software formula) compares my DNA against it. Mine is 2.6% the same as the Neander valley resident.  The first humans with proto-Neanderthal traits are believed to have existed in Europe as early as 600,000?350,000 years ago.  Homo sapiens married into them, absorbing them and their hardiness.

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From mackzie at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 11 13:17:08 2013
From: mackzie at earthlink.net (Beth Burke)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:17:08 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] County name changes
Message-ID: <000001ceaf2b$e4b1dfc0$ae159f40$@earthlink.net>

My sister is a Government Information & Data Services Librarian at Western
Illinois University, and she needs help with something that I have not come
across in my genealogy research.  I'm hoping one of you have run across this
situation because it could conceivably happen when we are doing research.
Here's her dilemma:

 

"I am writing a review of the Atlas of Historical County Boundaries web site
and I need some ideas to evaluate it. For example, if someone wanted to know
where a particular county was at a particular time period..Are there records
for people who lived in a county that you cannot find because the county no
longer exists? If so, can you please send me some names of those counties
with their states?"

 

As I said, I have not run across this in any of my genealogy research, but
maybe some of you have.  Please drop me a line with the country name (that
no longer exists), the country name that replaced it,  and the state where
all of this occurred. 

 

As always thanks for any assistance you can provide.

 

Beth Burke

Verona, WI



From Krampetz at aol.com  Wed Sep 11 13:31:56 2013
From: Krampetz at aol.com (Krampetz at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:31:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] County name changes
Message-ID: <4b96c.4f9d01f5.3f622d3c@aol.com>

A similar example I've run into:
   My mother said she Polish from Wilno,  Russia.    Long after her demise, 
 I got 
   into Genealogy and have found that Poland  was administered (or 'ruled') 
by 
    Russia (lot of history I didn't learn in school),  and Wilno 'County' 
was split
    between Poland and Belarus.  
 
   Polish archives couldn't find her, it was too vast a  territory.   I 
finally learned 
   her birth village in now gone, but was in  Belarus.   
   Again trying, Polish archives now point me to  Belarus.  and Belarus has 
yet to 
    come to the modern era of communication.  A 'brick'  wall.
   
   Is this the sort of problem you consider in your  description?
 
Bob
 
 
In a message dated 09/11/13 01:17:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
mackzie at earthlink.net writes:

My  sister is a Government Information & Data Services Librarian at  Western
Illinois University, and she needs help with something that I have  not come
across in my genealogy research.  I'm hoping one of you have  run across 
this
situation because it could conceivably happen when we are  doing research.
Here's her dilemma:



"I am writing a review  of the Atlas of Historical County Boundaries web 
site
and I need some ideas  to evaluate it. For example, if someone wanted to 
know
where a particular  county was at a particular time period..Are there 
records
for people who  lived in a county that you cannot find because the county no
longer exists?  If so, can you please send me some names of those counties
with their  states?"



As I said, I have not run across this in any of my  genealogy research, but
maybe some of you have.  Please drop me a line  with the country name (that
no longer exists), the country name that  replaced it,  and the state where
all of this occurred.  



As always thanks for any assistance you can  provide.



Beth Burke

Verona,  WI

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From garyw555 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 11 14:03:34 2013
From: garyw555 at gmail.com (Gary Warner)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 14:03:34 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] County name changes
In-Reply-To: <000001ceaf2b$e4b1dfc0$ae159f40$@earthlink.net>
References: <000001ceaf2b$e4b1dfc0$ae159f40$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5230DAA6.4050509@gmail.com>

Beth,

Here is an example of a USA county that no longer exists.   See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_County,_Georgia

There are lots of counties are "daughter" counties that were formed from 
parts of other counties, and a few, like the above, that dissolved and 
became part of another county.

Legacy (probably only the Deluxe version) has something called the USA 
County verifier.   It can be accessed through the Master Location list 
(the button with the icon of a ball).   It does not seem possible to 
print the entire list, but here are some examples of counties that no 
longer exist in _just the state of Alabama_. You could likely type in 
that county name in Wikipedia to find the history.

Baine County, Alabama  1866 to 1867
Baker County, Alabama  1868 to 1874
Benton County, Alabama 1832 to 1858
Blaine County, Alabama 1866 to 1868
Cahawba County, Alabama 1818 to 1820
Colbert Couunty, Alabama 1867 to 1867
Cotaco county, Alabama 1818 to 1821
Elk County, Alabama 1817 to 1818
Hancock County, Alabama 1850 to 1858
Jones County, Alabama 1867 to 1867
Sanford County, Alabama 1867 to 1877

Gary Warner
Gig Harbor, WA


On 9/11/2013 1:17 PM, Beth Burke wrote:
> My sister is a Government Information & Data Services Librarian at Western
> Illinois University, and she needs help with something that I have not come
> across in my genealogy research.  I'm hoping one of you have run across this
> situation because it could conceivably happen when we are doing research.
> Here's her dilemma:
>
>   
>
> "I am writing a review of the Atlas of Historical County Boundaries web site
> and I need some ideas to evaluate it. For example, if someone wanted to know
> where a particular county was at a particular time period..Are there records
> for people who lived in a county that you cannot find because the county no
> longer exists? If so, can you please send me some names of those counties
> with their states?"
>
>   
>
> As I said, I have not run across this in any of my genealogy research, but
> maybe some of you have.  Please drop me a line with the country name (that
> no longer exists), the country name that replaced it,  and the state where
> all of this occurred.
>
>   
>
> As always thanks for any assistance you can provide.
>
>   
>
> Beth Burke
>
> Verona, WI
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From roseingram at shaw.ca  Wed Sep 11 14:21:33 2013
From: roseingram at shaw.ca (Rose Ingram)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 14:21:33 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] County name changes
References: <000001ceaf2b$e4b1dfc0$ae159f40$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <015101ceaf34$e3ad7900$6500a8c0@duocore>

Beth

Have your sister check her Library for the book  "Map Guide to the U.S. Federal censuses, 1790-1920" by William Thorndale and William Dollarhide.

The Family History Center I use has this book which I found useful for tracking the Ingram ancestors.  Grant you it just covers the time of the census (every 10 years).  But it does show what counties were created each year or blended with other counties. 

I don't remember all the details as it has been about 15 years since I used it.

Rose Ingram


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Beth Burke 
  To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:17 PM
  Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] County name changes


  My sister is a Government Information & Data Services Librarian at Western
  Illinois University, and she needs help with something that I have not come
  across in my genealogy research.  I'm hoping one of you have run across this
  situation because it could conceivably happen when we are doing research.
  Here's her dilemma:

   

  "I am writing a review of the Atlas of Historical County Boundaries web site
  and I need some ideas to evaluate it. For example, if someone wanted to know
  where a particular county was at a particular time period..Are there records
  for people who lived in a county that you cannot find because the county no
  longer exists? If so, can you please send me some names of those counties
  with their states?"

   

  As I said, I have not run across this in any of my genealogy research, but
  maybe some of you have.  Please drop me a line with the country name (that
  no longer exists), the country name that replaced it,  and the state where
  all of this occurred. 

   

  As always thanks for any assistance you can provide.

   

  Beth Burke

  Verona, WI

  _______________________________________________
  Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
  Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

From erickkrueger at gmail.com  Wed Sep 11 14:27:43 2013
From: erickkrueger at gmail.com (Erick Krueger)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 17:27:43 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] County name changes
In-Reply-To: <015101ceaf34$e3ad7900$6500a8c0@duocore>
References: <000001ceaf2b$e4b1dfc0$ae159f40$@earthlink.net>
	<015101ceaf34$e3ad7900$6500a8c0@duocore>
Message-ID: <CAMbAW9uxyKYe133p29xh-vct4vqit4GMT3V6o9c4CXfhDnm9gg@mail.gmail.com>

If you're researching in the USA, then there are animated county formation
maps available online, that go year by year and explain how counties
formed/changed.

Easiest way is to google search the state name and "county formation map".

A few examples:
Alabama:   http://gordonbush.com/genealogy/maps/AL_formation_maps.htm
North Carolina:  http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/state2/amap/nccf.html
Tennessee:  http://tngenweb.org/maps/county-ani/tn-maps/tn-cf.html
and so on.

Looks like a lot of these took data from AniMap, which is available here
for sale:
http://goldbug.com/animap/


Hope that helps,

Erick



On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Rose Ingram <roseingram at shaw.ca> wrote:

> Beth
>
> Have your sister check her Library for the book  "Map Guide to the U.S.
> Federal censuses, 1790-1920" by William Thorndale and William Dollarhide.
>
> The Family History Center I use has this book which I found useful for
> tracking the Ingram ancestors.  Grant you it just covers the time of the
> census (every 10 years).  But it does show what counties were created each
> year or blended with other counties.
>
> I don't remember all the details as it has been about 15 years since I
> used it.
>
> Rose Ingram
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Beth Burke
>   To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
>   Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:17 PM
>   Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] County name changes
>
>
>   My sister is a Government Information & Data Services Librarian at
> Western
>   Illinois University, and she needs help with something that I have not
> come
>   across in my genealogy research.  I'm hoping one of you have run across
> this
>   situation because it could conceivably happen when we are doing research.
>   Here's her dilemma:
>
>
>
>   "I am writing a review of the Atlas of Historical County Boundaries web
> site
>   and I need some ideas to evaluate it. For example, if someone wanted to
> know
>   where a particular county was at a particular time period..Are there
> records
>   for people who lived in a county that you cannot find because the county
> no
>   longer exists? If so, can you please send me some names of those counties
>   with their states?"
>
>
>
>   As I said, I have not run across this in any of my genealogy research,
> but
>   maybe some of you have.  Please drop me a line with the country name
> (that
>   no longer exists), the country name that replaced it,  and the state
> where
>   all of this occurred.
>
>
>
>   As always thanks for any assistance you can provide.
>
>
>
>   Beth Burke
>
>   Verona, WI
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>   Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>   https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>


From garyw555 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 11 14:43:09 2013
From: garyw555 at gmail.com (Gary Warner)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 14:43:09 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
In-Reply-To: <2F56D155472D4C4F8304433F175CA08F@DEN>
References: <58D6967F-FBD4-458B-B1C3-59FB887F15AD@schienke.com>
	<8523ECDF5DAE40FB981785F627AFE2EE@DANIEL>
	<2F56D155472D4C4F8304433F175CA08F@DEN>
Message-ID: <5230E3ED.8080802@gmail.com>

To all,

DNA testing does not test your ancestors.   What it does is match your 
DNA to anyone else who has submitted their DNA to the same databank.   
By matching up DNA strands, they can determine if others in the same 
databank have a high probability of being your relative (i.e., similar 
DNA strands).   The DNA only gets to two people working together to 
determine how they are actually related.

I am no expert, but there are at least three different types of tests:

The Y-DNA test to search for the ancestry of your father's father's 
father's father (and so on).   So far as I know at present, it does not 
match you to anyone other than a descendant of that direct line of 
fathers, and is apparently only of use to determine which part of the 
world your pre-modern-era father's father came from.

Next is the mtDNA, and this only tracks the ancestry of your mother's 
mother's mother's mother (etc).   It is likewise only good to determine 
which part of the world your pre-modern era mother's mother came from.

Finally, there is the Autosomal DNA.   This DNA test is used to 
determine who your relatives are, both male and female, for the last 
five to six generations.    This is the test that I had done, and the 
company called My Family Tree DNA (https://my.familytreedna.com) found 
matches for me to look at.   I was a bit leary as to how this all 
worked, so in addition to my DNA, all that I gave them was my direct 
line surnames, and the countries where they resided.   I got back a lot 
of results that look primising, but so far have only been able to 
determine a relationship for one of those results.   The link that I 
found was not a direct line ancestor surname, but rather the great 
grandson of my grandfather's sister.   The predicted relationship was a 
4th cousin, but he is actually my 2nd cousin, twice removed.   I guess 
if you figure that both relationships are 4 times removed from me, then 
the predicton was correct.   The other relationships have not yet been 
proven, but that is likely only because the people I am matched to do 
not know enough of their (and my) genealogy to figure it out yet.

Gary Warner
Gig Harbor, WA

On 9/11/2013 12:25 PM, Gerald Klatt wrote:
> Same question from me. I eagerly wait the reply.
>
> Gerald
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Buss" <dbuss at rogers.com>
> To: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>; "SGGEElistserv list" 
> <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>
>
>> Hello Otto,
>> Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the 
>> major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or 
>> me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample 
>> spit, or whatever?????.
>> Dan B.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>
>> To: "SGGEElistserv list" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:52 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>>
>>
>>> Good morning Listers!
>>> The question has been asked many times.  I've wanted to submit a 
>>> reply but did not take time to do so. . . so many e-letters to type.
>>> But then, perhaps I just procrastinate.
>>>
>>> I know there are many on the List and also SGGEE members who have 
>>> taken the test I am discussing here, one I feel is a helper to 
>>> paper-trail research. The participants can speak for themselves. I 
>>> am willing to answer questions limited to this test and its use but 
>>> will do so privately.
>>>
>>> I am involved in both paper-trail and DNA research and receive the 
>>> same delight from a new paper record of a past relative of mine as 
>>> from a DNA match without a paper. The signature of a g.g.g. 
>>> grandfather on paper, Wow.-the DNA genetic shift because of just one 
>>> marital union, Wow.
>>> This is today, we cannot have the chicken without the egg. Both is 
>>> better. Like a right and left hand washing dishes. SGGEE and 
>>> 23andMe, a symbiotic relationship.
>>>
>>> The question that has come to the fore ofttimes, "Of what value is 
>>> DNA testing?
>>> There must be a value because the field is growing tremendously.
>>>
>>> DNA testing proves to be an adjunct to paper-trail research.
>>> Paper-trail research proves to be an adjunct to DNA trail research.
>>> I see no difference between the two. . . except DNA records are more 
>>> accurate.
>>>
>>> Paper-trail offers a written legal pedigree, that is, in accordance 
>>> with all the relevant rules.
>>> DNA offers a biological pedigree (we must view ourselves as a lump 
>>> of information, code; no bluffing in the code).
>>> I always think of a stateside cartoon series (the funny paper) of 
>>> the past; Popeye, the sailer-man and his saying, "I yam what I yam 
>>> and tha's all what I yam."  So goes it with DNA testing.
>>>
>>> "What benefit is DNA testing for paper-trail genealogy?"
>>> Civil paper records "state" I am my father's son. They are my legal 
>>> identification.
>>> *note: A woman on the DNA site enjoyed the test so much (all of that 
>>> info!) but not possessing a Y chromosome (female are X~X, no male 
>>> Y~X) badgered her paper-trail father into taking the test, paid for 
>>> it as a stimulus. He finally agreed. She waited impatiently for the 
>>> results-they finally arrived!  No match. . . not your father. . 
>>> .Time to talk to Mom.
>>> DNA biological records prove it out. They are biological 
>>> identification.
>>> DNA testing has released many persons wrongly convicted on criminal 
>>> charges.
>>>
>>> Types of DNA testing:
>>> "STR" testing for "Haplotype" will prove out that I am my son's father.
>>> Short Tandem Repeats -STR, a favorite in forensics.
>>>
>>> and 23andMe spit-testing
>>> "SNP" testing for "Haplogroup" (23andme) will provide a 23 
>>> chromosome, 1,000,000 + markers big picture test leading into the 
>>> distant past.
>>> Single Nucleotide polymorphism -SNPs,  valuable in study of disease 
>>> development and critical in personalized medicine. For genealogy 
>>> purposes it provides a 23 chromosome based view of what genes a 
>>> person is knit from.
>>>
>>> -It creates a "Y-Haplogroup", based on the Y chromosome which 
>>> contains markers passed from father to father to father into the 
>>> distant past.
>>>
>>> My Y-Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a1*, the base group is "R" and each 
>>> character after the initial R represents a mutation, for example, 
>>> 1-b-1-b-2-a-1-a-1-*,  the asterisk marks an as of yet unclassified 
>>> mutation.  I refer to it as Mother Nature's latest software code 
>>> update.
>>>
>>> -it creates a mtDNA-Haplogroup, based on the DNA of mitochondria in 
>>> the red blood cells, passed from mother to mother to mother and so 
>>> on into the distant past.
>>>
>>> My mtDNA-Haplogroup is H1, the base group is "H" and each character 
>>> after the initial H represents a mutation.
>>>
>>> So. . . What has it offered me besides my health scenario. . . (Yo! 
>>> Mon!-Sheesh, I thought so. . . now I know it for sure and live 
>>> accordingly)
>>> Health includes Health Risks, Drug Response, Inherited Conditions, 
>>> Traits, Health Tools
>>>
>>> DNA testing pointed me to the shorelines of the North Sea and 
>>> beyond, laying claim to being an ancient inhabitant of Doggerland, 
>>> now lying beneath the North Sea since the last glacial meltdown.  
>>> This immediately redirected my paper-trail research to the Baltic 
>>> Sea coast and west to the North Sea coast.  The "Cluster Effect" 
>>> came to the fore as I searched for similar peoples moving along the 
>>> coast to eastern territories. I am making headway-"can't know where 
>>> you are going until you know where you coming from."
>>>
>>> What else did genetic testing with 23andme provide for me?
>>> -It provided me with my "Ancestry Composition"- My mixed gene bag of 
>>> who I really am. Amazing!
>>> -It provided me with my "Maternal Line" History (research can also 
>>> be conducted online (google, Wiki,etc) using just the haplogroup 
>>> characters)
>>> -It provided me with my "Paternal Line" History (ditto)
>>> -It provide me with my "Neanderthal Ancestry" (2.6%. . . my deceased 
>>> wife always accused me of carrying some markers-I accused her family 
>>> of carrying many markers. . . her brother tested Y-haplogroup 
>>> R1b1b2a1a1. . . @ 2.9% Neanderthal (yeh! I knew it!)
>>> Well, I at least remain the latest haplogroup update. . .*)
>>>
>>> -"Ancestry Tools" box has a variety of algorithms to play with-I 
>>> like "Global Similarity."
>>>
>>> -It provided me (to date)  "DNA Relatives.", with 766 biological 
>>> relatives.
>>> Some are paper-trail verified-(They must also be spit-tested and 
>>> part of the database group.)
>>> A few verified paper-trailers follow:
>>> I ran 23andme application ("Family Traits" algorithm) and tested 
>>> myself against myself. . . Yup! 100% me.  "I yam what I yam and 
>>> tha's all what I yam."
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> son. . .50% me. (it is my son!)
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> first cousin. .  Yup! 1st cousin maternal side!
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 3rd 
>>> cousin. . . 3rd cousin he is!
>>>
>>> -Without a present day paper-trail ID, in  "DNA Relatives.", Norman 
>>> Radke rates as a 5th cousin, his offspring rate as cousins, Donald 
>>> Miller rates as a 5th cousin, Earl Schultz rates as a 10th cousin 
>>> and so on. Albert Muth and I are very similar genetically but not 
>>> part of a direct line of descent even though Albert is also a cousin 
>>> to Donald Miller. . . and Meta Fife.
>>>
>>> This is just the beginning. Many more names will be added to the  
>>> "DNA Relatives" relative list.  Once a DNA connection is 
>>> established, contact must be established and a paper-trail 
>>> connection needs to be made.  In checking the 23andme site for the 
>>> number of cousins, I noticed another close female relative I have 
>>> the paper-trail for. . . Gotta write to her.
>>>
>>> -It provides me with my "Gene Comparison" to the rest of the 23andme 
>>> group. ( birds of a feather do flock together)
>>>
>>> It provides me with my "Family Traits", an application, (algorithm) 
>>> which I use to compare my genes with all who have agreed to share 
>>> with me at 23andme. Your  actual DNA code is never seen by others 
>>> and vice-versa. 23andme computer algorithms do the work for you. 
>>> Quickly.
>>>
>>> -One can also participate in their research. . .  With paper-trail 
>>> and DNA trail pursuits, my time is limited.
>>>
>>> -A "Community Site" and "Blog" exists for answers to questions.
>>>
>>> . . .   Otto
>>>         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>>>                _____________________________________
>>>                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de  Wed Sep 11 14:48:17 2013
From: paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de (Paul Rakow)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 23:48:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1378839600.3286.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1378839600.3286.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1309112313160.19023@pub4.ifh.de>


  Otto <otto at schienke.com> wrote: 
>
> -There is no clear distinction between a language and a dialect.

    That reminded of a favourite quote,
   "A language is a dialect that has acquired an army and a navy".

      I looked to see where it came from - rather appropriately
  it was first said in Yiddish:
  "ikh vel aykh gebn a besere definitsye:
  A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot"
  (as reported by Max Weinreich).

     The interesting thing is, if anyone who speaks German
  sounds out that Yiddish sentence, they'll understand it
  problemlos, which just illustrates the point.

               Paul Rakow




From rschlesselman at comcast.net  Wed Sep 11 14:54:45 2013
From: rschlesselman at comcast.net (Carole)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 17:54:45 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124,
	Issue 9  - German Dialects
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1378926000.7058.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1378926000.7058.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <003001ceaf39$874473d0$95cd5b70$@net>


Funny thing about German dialects:  My mother was born in Alberta and raised
in Saskatchewan.  Her parents were from Bessarabia.  My father was born and
raised in Manitoba.  His parents were from Volhynia.  Both of my parents
grew up speaking German at home.  However, my father said he spoke "High
German" which he felt was superior somehow criticized my mother for speaking
"Low German."  They would argue about pronunciations.  The funniest was the
pronunciation of perogies (a Polish dish, no less!)  But they didn't argue
just about the pronunciation they also argued over what should be inside
them.  My father said his mother always put plums inside.  My mother only
ever made them with potatoes and cheese.  Although we did eat perogies
(never with plums) my parents never taught us German (too painful?) and to
this day I regret that.

Carole (Henkel) Schlesselman



From gilleh23 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 11 17:21:45 2013
From: gilleh23 at gmail.com (Helen Gillespie)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 20:21:45 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124,
 Issue 9 - German Dialects
In-Reply-To: <003001ceaf39$874473d0$95cd5b70$@net>
References: <mailman.1.1378926000.7058.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
	<003001ceaf39$874473d0$95cd5b70$@net>
Message-ID: <CAPK9Va+X8dyykOid=RqfDqrpBfKn1QS5nHWU6Nq-6dxiCXNt4w@mail.gmail.com>

Perogies - I guess it depends on taste.  We usually had potatoes and
farmer's or dry cottage cheese ones but sometimes Mom would make them with
fruit. My Dad liked those. They were a bit messy though. I guess it depends
on where you lived - or the tradition in your own family.
Or potato pancakes - do you serve them with applesauce or sour cream? Again
- depends on your sources. Or taste.
Or cabbage rolls - lots of rice or with meat ?- It might depend on
location. We always had meat in ours - with some rice - but many Ukrainian
cabbage rolls are meatless. A cost factor or tradition.  I don't know.

In any case - they are all good!

Helen


On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Carole <rschlesselman at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> Funny thing about German dialects:  My mother was born in Alberta and
> raised
> in Saskatchewan.  Her parents were from Bessarabia.  My father was born and
> raised in Manitoba.  His parents were from Volhynia.  Both of my parents
> grew up speaking German at home.  However, my father said he spoke "High
> German" which he felt was superior somehow criticized my mother for
> speaking
> "Low German."  They would argue about pronunciations.  The funniest was the
> pronunciation of perogies (a Polish dish, no less!)  But they didn't argue
> just about the pronunciation they also argued over what should be inside
> them.  My father said his mother always put plums inside.  My mother only
> ever made them with potatoes and cheese.  Although we did eat perogies
> (never with plums) my parents never taught us German (too painful?) and to
> this day I regret that.
>
> Carole (Henkel) Schlesselman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>


From dabookk54 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 11 21:29:18 2013
From: dabookk54 at yahoo.com (Karl Krueger)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 21:29:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
In-Reply-To: <5230E3ED.8080802@gmail.com>
References: <58D6967F-FBD4-458B-B1C3-59FB887F15AD@schienke.com>	<8523ECDF5DAE40FB981785F627AFE2EE@DANIEL>	<2F56D155472D4C4F8304433F175CA08F@DEN>
	<5230E3ED.8080802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1378960158.67719.YahooMailNeo@web140806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

>>Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the 
>> major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or 
>> me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample 
>> spit, or whatever?????.
>> Dan B.
?
Dan,
I will try to answer your question shortly but some explanation is needed. I am a biochemist and thus know molecular biology so the principles I will describe are well within my expertise to comment on.
?For genealogical purposes generally two kinds of DNA markers are used: 1) mitochondrial (mt) DNA which is inherited maternally and 2) Y-chromosome markers which are inherited paternally and only present in males. All other markers come from autosomal DNA or the X chromosome and subject to a process called recombination meaning the maternal and paternal DNA can be intermixed when passed to the next generation. Thus autosomal ?markers cannot be tracked by their source so for now only mt and Y DNA only give us information we can conclude on its source.
The markers you have are virtually all shared by others but the combination of markers you have can show great differences among the population and what helps distinguish us.? So if you have mt markers that match someone elses that is an indication you may be related to that person through maternal lineages. The same reasoning holds for Y-chromosome markers. 
Now if your name was Krueger we could try to see if we MAY BE related through our paternal lineages since Y-markers follow along with the surname unless something otherwise happens like illegitimate birth or adoption. Jerry Frank had relatives living in a region of Poland where my Frank ancestors also lived back in the early 1800s. Since we lack records to take our generations further back how might I determine if Jerry and I have common descendancy? I don?t carry the Frank Y chromosome. I could get one of my Frank 2nd cousins to test his Y-DNA and do the same with Jerry.? If we see a virtually identical representation of the markers used that would suggest we are related. But we cannot determine how far back that would go. It would only suggest we have a common male Frank ancestor somewhere in our history.
Now that I said all this I want to bring us out of the 20th century into the 21st century. DNA sequencing technology has come a long way to the point where now it has become relatively affordable to sequence your entire genome for $1000. I have heard the older members say they have no interest in this since they likely won?t get anything out of this. ?I plan to do this eventually. It will provide your complete DNA sequence and all those former markers are just a needle in the haystack of all the information you get. ?The more people that will do this now the more benefit we will get out of it for ourselves for genealogical comparisons. But the information will be available for future generations where likely everyone will be getting complete genome sequencing done just like we all get our blood typed.? If your wife and your children get it done you could determine exactly what segments of DNA your children inherited from each of you. Go down to your
 grandchildren and you can see what genes of yours were passed down to them. Keep adding generations and now you are talking about having a complete picture of what your descendants inherited from you and their other ancestors. This is where the future is headed so do your descendants a favor and get your genome sequenced. I expect this will become readily available in the next few years.
Karl
?


________________________________
From: Gary Warner <garyw555 at gmail.com>
To: Gerald Klatt <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca> 
Cc: Otto <otto at schienke.com>; SGGEElistserv list <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?


To all,

DNA testing does not test your ancestors.? What it does is match your 
DNA to anyone else who has submitted their DNA to the same databank.? 
By matching up DNA strands, they can determine if others in the same 
databank have a high probability of being your relative (i.e., similar 
DNA strands).? The DNA only gets to two people working together to 
determine how they are actually related.

I am no expert, but there are at least three different types of tests:

The Y-DNA test to search for the ancestry of your father's father's 
father's father (and so on).? So far as I know at present, it does not 
match you to anyone other than a descendant of that direct line of 
fathers, and is apparently only of use to determine which part of the 
world your pre-modern-era father's father came from.

Next is the mtDNA, and this only tracks the ancestry of your mother's 
mother's mother's mother (etc).? It is likewise only good to determine 
which part of the world your pre-modern era mother's mother came from.

Finally, there is the Autosomal DNA.? This DNA test is used to 
determine who your relatives are, both male and female, for the last 
five to six generations.? ? This is the test that I had done, and the 
company called My Family Tree DNA (https://my.familytreedna.com/) found 
matches for me to look at.? I was a bit leary as to how this all 
worked, so in addition to my DNA, all that I gave them was my direct 
line surnames, and the countries where they resided.? I got back a lot 
of results that look primising, but so far have only been able to 
determine a relationship for one of those results.? The link that I 
found was not a direct line ancestor surname, but rather the great 
grandson of my grandfather's sister.? The predicted relationship was a 
4th cousin, but he is actually my 2nd cousin, twice removed.? I guess 
if you figure that both relationships are 4 times removed from me, then 
the predicton was correct.? The other relationships have not yet been 
proven, but that is likely only because the people I am matched to do 
not know enough of their (and my) genealogy to figure it out yet.

Gary Warner
Gig Harbor, WA

On 9/11/2013 12:25 PM, Gerald Klatt wrote:
> Same question from me. I eagerly wait the reply.
>
> Gerald
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Buss" <dbuss at rogers.com>
> To: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>; "SGGEElistserv list" 
> <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>
>
>> Hello Otto,
>> Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the 
>> major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or 
>> me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample 
>> spit, or whatever?????.
>> Dan B.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>
>> To: "SGGEElistserv list" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:52 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>>
>>
>>> Good morning Listers!
>>> The question has been asked many times.? I've wanted to submit a 
>>> reply but did not take time to do so. . . so many e-letters to type.
>>> But then, perhaps I just procrastinate.
>>>
>>> I know there are many on the List and also SGGEE members who have 
>>> taken the test I am discussing here, one I feel is a helper to 
>>> paper-trail research. The participants can speak for themselves. I 
>>> am willing to answer questions limited to this test and its use but 
>>> will do so privately.
>>>
>>> I am involved in both paper-trail and DNA research and receive the 
>>> same delight from a new paper record of a past relative of mine as 
>>> from a DNA match without a paper. The signature of a g.g.g. 
>>> grandfather on paper, Wow.-the DNA genetic shift because of just one 
>>> marital union, Wow.
>>> This is today, we cannot have the chicken without the egg. Both is 
>>> better. Like a right and left hand washing dishes. SGGEE and 
>>> 23andMe, a symbiotic relationship.
>>>
>>> The question that has come to the fore ofttimes, "Of what value is 
>>> DNA testing?
>>> There must be a value because the field is growing tremendously.
>>>
>>> DNA testing proves to be an adjunct to paper-trail research.
>>> Paper-trail research proves to be an adjunct to DNA trail research.
>>> I see no difference between the two. . . except DNA records are more 
>>> accurate.
>>>
>>> Paper-trail offers a written legal pedigree, that is, in accordance 
>>> with all the relevant rules.
>>> DNA offers a biological pedigree (we must view ourselves as a lump 
>>> of information, code; no bluffing in the code).
>>> I always think of a stateside cartoon series (the funny paper) of 
>>> the past; Popeye, the sailer-man and his saying, "I yam what I yam 
>>> and tha's all what I yam."? So goes it with DNA testing.
>>>
>>> "What benefit is DNA testing for paper-trail genealogy?"
>>> Civil paper records "state" I am my father's son. They are my legal 
>>> identification.
>>> *note: A woman on the DNA site enjoyed the test so much (all of that 
>>> info!) but not possessing a Y chromosome (female are X~X, no male 
>>> Y~X) badgered her paper-trail father into taking the test, paid for 
>>> it as a stimulus. He finally agreed. She waited impatiently for the 
>>> results-they finally arrived!? No match. . . not your father. . 
>>> .Time to talk to Mom.
>>> DNA biological records prove it out. They are biological 
>>> identification.
>>> DNA testing has released many persons wrongly convicted on criminal 
>>> charges.
>>>
>>> Types of DNA testing:
>>> "STR" testing for "Haplotype" will prove out that I am my son's father.
>>> Short Tandem Repeats -STR, a favorite in forensics.
>>>
>>> and 23andMe spit-testing
>>> "SNP" testing for "Haplogroup" (23andme) will provide a 23 
>>> chromosome, 1,000,000 + markers big picture test leading into the 
>>> distant past.
>>> Single Nucleotide polymorphism -SNPs,? valuable in study of disease 
>>> development and critical in personalized medicine. For genealogy 
>>> purposes it provides a 23 chromosome based view of what genes a 
>>> person is knit from.
>>>
>>> -It creates a "Y-Haplogroup", based on the Y chromosome which 
>>> contains markers passed from father to father to father into the 
>>> distant past.
>>>
>>> My Y-Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a1*, the base group is "R" and each 
>>> character after the initial R represents a mutation, for example, 
>>> 1-b-1-b-2-a-1-a-1-*,? the asterisk marks an as of yet unclassified 
>>> mutation.? I refer to it as Mother Nature's latest software code 
>>> update.
>>>
>>> -it creates a mtDNA-Haplogroup, based on the DNA of mitochondria in 
>>> the red blood cells, passed from mother to mother to mother and so 
>>> on into the distant past.
>>>
>>> My mtDNA-Haplogroup is H1, the base group is "H" and each character 
>>> after the initial H represents a mutation.
>>>
>>> So. . . What has it offered me besides my health scenario. . . (Yo! 
>>> Mon!-Sheesh, I thought so. . . now I know it for sure and live 
>>> accordingly)
>>> Health includes Health Risks, Drug Response, Inherited Conditions, 
>>> Traits, Health Tools
>>>
>>> DNA testing pointed me to the shorelines of the North Sea and 
>>> beyond, laying claim to being an ancient inhabitant of Doggerland, 
>>> now lying beneath the North Sea since the last glacial meltdown.? 
>>> This immediately redirected my paper-trail research to the Baltic 
>>> Sea coast and west to the North Sea coast.? The "Cluster Effect" 
>>> came to the fore as I searched for similar peoples moving along the 
>>> coast to eastern territories. I am making headway-"can't know where 
>>> you are going until you know where you coming from."
>>>
>>> What else did genetic testing with 23andme provide for me?
>>> -It provided me with my "Ancestry Composition"- My mixed gene bag of 
>>> who I really am. Amazing!
>>> -It provided me with my "Maternal Line" History (research can also 
>>> be conducted online (google, Wiki,etc) using just the haplogroup 
>>> characters)
>>> -It provided me with my "Paternal Line" History (ditto)
>>> -It provide me with my "Neanderthal Ancestry" (2.6%. . . my deceased 
>>> wife always accused me of carrying some markers-I accused her family 
>>> of carrying many markers. . . her brother tested Y-haplogroup 
>>> R1b1b2a1a1. . . @ 2.9% Neanderthal (yeh! I knew it!)
>>> Well, I at least remain the latest haplogroup update. . .*)
>>>
>>> -"Ancestry Tools" box has a variety of algorithms to play with-I 
>>> like "Global Similarity."
>>>
>>> -It provided me (to date)? "DNA Relatives.", with 766 biological 
>>> relatives.
>>> Some are paper-trail verified-(They must also be spit-tested and 
>>> part of the database group.)
>>> A few verified paper-trailers follow:
>>> I ran 23andme application ("Family Traits" algorithm) and tested 
>>> myself against myself. . . Yup! 100% me.? "I yam what I yam and 
>>> tha's all what I yam."
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> son. . .50% me. (it is my son!)
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> first cousin. .? Yup! 1st cousin maternal side!
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 3rd 
>>> cousin. . . 3rd cousin he is!
>>>
>>> -Without a present day paper-trail ID, in? "DNA Relatives.", Norman 
>>> Radke rates as a 5th cousin, his offspring rate as cousins, Donald 
>>> Miller rates as a 5th cousin, Earl Schultz rates as a 10th cousin 
>>> and so on. Albert Muth and I are very similar genetically but not 
>>> part of a direct line of descent even though Albert is also a cousin 
>>> to Donald Miller. . . and Meta Fife.
>>>
>>> This is just the beginning. Many more names will be added to the? 
>>> "DNA Relatives" relative list.? Once a DNA connection is 
>>> established, contact must be established and a paper-trail 
>>> connection needs to be made.? In checking the 23andme site for the 
>>> number of cousins, I noticed another close female relative I have 
>>> the paper-trail for. . . Gotta write to her.
>>>
>>> -It provides me with my "Gene Comparison" to the rest of the 23andme 
>>> group. ( birds of a feather do flock together)
>>>
>>> It provides me with my "Family Traits", an application, (algorithm) 
>>> which I use to compare my genes with all who have agreed to share 
>>> with me at 23andme. Your? actual DNA code is never seen by others 
>>> and vice-versa. 23andme computer algorithms do the work for you. 
>>> Quickly.
>>>
>>> -One can also participate in their research. . .? With paper-trail 
>>> and DNA trail pursuits, my time is limited.
>>>
>>> -A "Community Site" and "Blog" exists for answers to questions.
>>>
>>> . . .? Otto
>>>? ? ? ? " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? _____________________________________
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "Answers out there . . .? Seeking us."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

From christianlucht at googlemail.com  Thu Sep 12 00:48:33 2013
From: christianlucht at googlemail.com (Christian Lucht)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 09:48:33 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124,
 Issue 9 - German Dialects
In-Reply-To: <CAPK9Va+X8dyykOid=RqfDqrpBfKn1QS5nHWU6Nq-6dxiCXNt4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1378926000.7058.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
	<003001ceaf39$874473d0$95cd5b70$@net>
	<CAPK9Va+X8dyykOid=RqfDqrpBfKn1QS5nHWU6Nq-6dxiCXNt4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMQ8VqhJfB7W=yFAcMh6eJLUd-EKonS388uhcPA1H5hXKJ4u7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Perogies- Did you really call them perogies back then? Or is that the
English version of the German word "Pyroggen" as they were called in our
family in Russian Poland.
Christian


2013/9/12 Helen Gillespie <gilleh23 at gmail.com>

> Perogies - I guess it depends on taste.  We usually had potatoes and
> farmer's or dry cottage cheese ones but sometimes Mom would make them with
> fruit. My Dad liked those. They were a bit messy though. I guess it depends
> on where you lived - or the tradition in your own family.
> Or potato pancakes - do you serve them with applesauce or sour cream? Again
> - depends on your sources. Or taste.
> Or cabbage rolls - lots of rice or with meat ?- It might depend on
> location. We always had meat in ours - with some rice - but many Ukrainian
> cabbage rolls are meatless. A cost factor or tradition.  I don't know.
>
> In any case - they are all good!
>
> Helen
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Carole <rschlesselman at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Funny thing about German dialects:  My mother was born in Alberta and
> > raised
> > in Saskatchewan.  Her parents were from Bessarabia.  My father was born
> and
> > raised in Manitoba.  His parents were from Volhynia.  Both of my parents
> > grew up speaking German at home.  However, my father said he spoke "High
> > German" which he felt was superior somehow criticized my mother for
> > speaking
> > "Low German."  They would argue about pronunciations.  The funniest was
> the
> > pronunciation of perogies (a Polish dish, no less!)  But they didn't
> argue
> > just about the pronunciation they also argued over what should be inside
> > them.  My father said his mother always put plums inside.  My mother only
> > ever made them with potatoes and cheese.  Although we did eat perogies
> > (never with plums) my parents never taught us German (too painful?) and
> to
> > this day I regret that.
> >
> > Carole (Henkel) Schlesselman
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> > https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>


From DANWWAGNER at aol.com  Thu Sep 12 06:27:19 2013
From: DANWWAGNER at aol.com (DANWWAGNER at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 09:27:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
Message-ID: <af581.7e8b3c8e.3f631b37@aol.com>

A short question with a long wind up.  
 
My father's father was an ethnic German, Lutheran, raised in  Volhynia: 
Gustav Wagner, born 10 May 1885 in Redufka.  The family  spent several 
generations in Volhynia, mostly living in  Roschischtsche.  Some family members 
(including my grandparents)  left Volhynia for Elsenau (then in Germany) in the 
late 1890's or the  1910's.  Elsenau is a manoral village east of Berlin in 
present-day  Poland.  I suspect that Elsenau, or nearby Loosen, was the 
Wagner's  ancestral home before the migration to Russian-occupied territory in 
the  late 1700's (yes, that early).  My father was born in 1915 in Chicago 
just  one year after his parents immigrated from Elsenau, and Dad learned 
German  at home.
 
My father used to make a point of telling me that he pronounced  "ich" like 
"ish."  I think he went on to explain that his pronunciation  came from 
Prussia.  Does that tell us anything?  Prussian  dialect, low German, Volhynia 
dialect?  What little German I learned was in  high school.  Anyway, "ish" 
is just one tiny detail, but it's stuck in my  memory for decades.
 
Thanks.  Dan Wagner       
 

From okolewe at me.com  Thu Sep 12 06:45:03 2013
From: okolewe at me.com (Ort Kolewe)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 08:45:03 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <af581.7e8b3c8e.3f631b37@aol.com>
References: <af581.7e8b3c8e.3f631b37@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0FDDD65C-EDEC-459D-9305-F5A62D5D840D@me.com>

Prussian...not. German. Baltic tribes exterminated by the brothers of the cloth...Teutonic Order...after the Crusades.The DNA markers of the Prussians would be interesting.I think they faded into the back woods of White Russia and Lithuania.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2013, at 8:27 AM, DANWWAGNER at aol.com wrote:

> A short question with a long wind up.  
> 
> My father's father was an ethnic German, Lutheran, raised in  Volhynia: 
> Gustav Wagner, born 10 May 1885 in Redufka.  The family  spent several 
> generations in Volhynia, mostly living in  Roschischtsche.  Some family members 
> (including my grandparents)  left Volhynia for Elsenau (then in Germany) in the 
> late 1890's or the  1910's.  Elsenau is a manoral village east of Berlin in 
> present-day  Poland.  I suspect that Elsenau, or nearby Loosen, was the 
> Wagner's  ancestral home before the migration to Russian-occupied territory in 
> the  late 1700's (yes, that early).  My father was born in 1915 in Chicago 
> just  one year after his parents immigrated from Elsenau, and Dad learned 
> German  at home.
> 
> My father used to make a point of telling me that he pronounced  "ich" like 
> "ish."  I think he went on to explain that his pronunciation  came from 
> Prussia.  Does that tell us anything?  Prussian  dialect, low German, Volhynia 
> dialect?  What little German I learned was in  high school.  Anyway, "ish" 
> is just one tiny detail, but it's stuck in my  memory for decades.
> 
> Thanks.  Dan Wagner       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From okolewe at me.com  Thu Sep 12 07:00:46 2013
From: okolewe at me.com (Ort Kolewe)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 09:00:46 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <af581.7e8b3c8e.3f631b37@aol.com>
References: <af581.7e8b3c8e.3f631b37@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1991E1F4-30BD-4A92-A15B-800D4C2823D9@me.com>

Remember...Prussian is not German but a stolen name of a group of tribes that faded away. Since my Mom was born in the area called West-Prussia,it was war when my Dad , a Schwabian, called her a Kashub. So...all you proud Prussians are really Balts.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2013, at 8:27 AM, DANWWAGNER at aol.com wrote:

> A short question with a long wind up.  
> 
> My father's father was an ethnic German, Lutheran, raised in  Volhynia: 
> Gustav Wagner, born 10 May 1885 in Redufka.  The family  spent several 
> generations in Volhynia, mostly living in  Roschischtsche.  Some family members 
> (including my grandparents)  left Volhynia for Elsenau (then in Germany) in the 
> late 1890's or the  1910's.  Elsenau is a manoral village east of Berlin in 
> present-day  Poland.  I suspect that Elsenau, or nearby Loosen, was the 
> Wagner's  ancestral home before the migration to Russian-occupied territory in 
> the  late 1700's (yes, that early).  My father was born in 1915 in Chicago 
> just  one year after his parents immigrated from Elsenau, and Dad learned 
> German  at home.
> 
> My father used to make a point of telling me that he pronounced  "ich" like 
> "ish."  I think he went on to explain that his pronunciation  came from 
> Prussia.  Does that tell us anything?  Prussian  dialect, low German, Volhynia 
> dialect?  What little German I learned was in  high school.  Anyway, "ish" 
> is just one tiny detail, but it's stuck in my  memory for decades.
> 
> Thanks.  Dan Wagner       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From jim at wieczoreksite.com  Thu Sep 12 07:53:53 2013
From: jim at wieczoreksite.com (Jim Wieczorek)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 07:53:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS
In-Reply-To: <1991E1F4-30BD-4A92-A15B-800D4C2823D9@me.com>
References: <af581.7e8b3c8e.3f631b37@aol.com>
	<1991E1F4-30BD-4A92-A15B-800D4C2823D9@me.com>
Message-ID: <1378997633.48618.YahooMailNeo@web120302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Semantics.? It probably doesn't matter what the origin of the Prussian name is.? My ancestors lived in the [then] Prussian Provinces of Posen and Silesia.? Some of my ancestors were germanic, some slavic, but all spoke German.? In the context generally used, a reasonable person understands Prussia to refer to the several provinces that in 1871 joined with the North German Confederation to become the Deutches Reich.



________________________________
From: Ort Kolewe <okolewe at me.com>
To: "DANWWAGNER at aol.com" <DANWWAGNER at aol.com> 
Cc: "ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org" <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>; "paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de" <paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de>; "wayneherbertwagner at gmail.com" <wayneherbertwagner at gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] GERMANS FROM RUSSIAN POLAND ACCENTS


Remember...Prussian is not German but a stolen name of a group of tribes that faded away. Since my Mom was born in the area called West-Prussia,it was war when my Dad , a Schwabian, called her a Kashub. So...all you proud Prussians are really Balts.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2013, at 8:27 AM, DANWWAGNER at aol.com wrote:

> A short question with a long wind up.? 
> 
> My father's father was an ethnic German, Lutheran, raised in? Volhynia: 
> Gustav Wagner, born 10 May 1885 in Redufka.? The family? spent several 
> generations in Volhynia, mostly living in? Roschischtsche.? Some family members 
> (including my grandparents)? left Volhynia for Elsenau (then in Germany) in the 
> late 1890's or the? 1910's.? Elsenau is a manoral village east of Berlin in 
> present-day? Poland.? I suspect that Elsenau, or nearby Loosen, was the 
> Wagner's? ancestral home before the migration to Russian-occupied territory in 
> the? late 1700's (yes, that early).? My father was born in 1915 in Chicago 
> just? one year after his parents immigrated from Elsenau, and Dad learned 
> German? at home.
> 
> My father used to make a point of telling me that he pronounced? "ich" like 
> "ish."? I think he went on to explain that his pronunciation? came from 
> Prussia.? Does that tell us anything?? Prussian? dialect, low German, Volhynia 
> dialect?? What little German I learned was in? high school.? Anyway, "ish" 
> is just one tiny detail, but it's stuck in my? memory for decades.
> 
> Thanks.? Dan Wagner? ? ? 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

From gswilson19 at aol.com  Thu Sep 12 10:27:14 2013
From: gswilson19 at aol.com (gswilson19 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 13:27:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
In-Reply-To: <1378960158.67719.YahooMailNeo@web140806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <58D6967F-FBD4-458B-B1C3-59FB887F15AD@schienke.com>	<8523ECDF5DAE40FB981785F627AFE2EE@DANIEL>	<2F56D155472D4C4F8304433F175CA08F@DEN>
	<5230E3ED.8080802@gmail.com>
	<1378960158.67719.YahooMailNeo@web140806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D07DF474EC0873-C0C-CDBB@webmail-d179.sysops.aol.com>

Karl and Otto,


Thank you for explaining DNA testing further for us.  


I had my great uncle who is a Krueger tested through FTDNA, but I don't recall your name coming up Karl.  How many markers that match do you consider to be significant?  I have had my Krueger line tested to 111 markers.  No matches at this level, but some at 67 with different last names, and more so on down the line of markers.  Out of all my matches, I think only one person matched who was a Kreger.


Gail



-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Krueger <dabookk54 at yahoo.com>
To: Gary Warner <garyw555 at gmail.com>; Gerald Klatt <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca>
Cc: Otto <otto at schienke.com>; SGGEElistserv list <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Wed, Sep 11, 2013 10:33 pm
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?


>>Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the 
>> major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or 
>> me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample 
>> spit, or whatever?????.
>> Dan B.
 
Dan,
I will try to answer your question shortly but some explanation is needed. I am 
a biochemist and thus know molecular biology so the principles I will describe 
are well within my expertise to comment on.
 For genealogical purposes generally two kinds of DNA markers are used: 1) 
mitochondrial (mt) DNA which is inherited maternally and 2) Y-chromosome markers 
which are inherited paternally and only present in males. All other markers come 
from autosomal DNA or the X chromosome and subject to a process called 
recombination meaning the maternal and paternal DNA can be intermixed when 
passed to the next generation. Thus autosomal  markers cannot be tracked by 
their source so for now only mt and Y DNA only give us information we can 
conclude on its source.
The markers you have are virtually all shared by others but the combination of 
markers you have can show great differences among the population and what helps 
distinguish us.  So if you have mt markers that match someone elses that is an 
indication you may be related to that person through maternal lineages. The same 
reasoning holds for Y-chromosome markers. 
Now if your name was Krueger we could try to see if we MAY BE related through 
our paternal lineages since Y-markers follow along with the surname unless 
something otherwise happens like illegitimate birth or adoption. Jerry Frank had 
relatives living in a region of Poland where my Frank ancestors also lived back 
in the early 1800s. Since we lack records to take our generations further back 
how might I determine if Jerry and I have common descendancy? I don?t carry the 
Frank Y chromosome. I could get one of my Frank 2nd cousins to test his Y-DNA 
and do the same with Jerry.  If we see a virtually identical representation of 
the markers used that would suggest we are related. But we cannot determine how 
far back that would go. It would only suggest we have a common male Frank 
ancestor somewhere in our history.
Now that I said all this I want to bring us out of the 20th century into the 
21st century. DNA sequencing technology has come a long way to the point where 
now it has become relatively affordable to sequence your entire genome for 
$1000. I have heard the older members say they have no interest in this since 
they likely won?t get anything out of this.  I plan to do this eventually. It 
will provide your complete DNA sequence and all those former markers are just a 
needle in the haystack of all the information you get.  The more people that 
will do this now the more benefit we will get out of it for ourselves for 
genealogical comparisons. But the information will be available for future 
generations where likely everyone will be getting complete genome sequencing 
done just like we all get our blood typed.  If your wife and your children get 
it done you could determine exactly what segments of DNA your children inherited 
from each of you. Go down to your
 grandchildren and you can see what genes of yours were passed down to them. 
Keep adding generations and now you are talking about having a complete picture 
of what your descendants inherited from you and their other ancestors. This is 
where the future is headed so do your descendants a favor and get your genome 
sequenced. I expect this will become readily available in the next few years.
Karl
 


________________________________
From: Gary Warner <garyw555 at gmail.com>
To: Gerald Klatt <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca> 
Cc: Otto <otto at schienke.com>; SGGEElistserv list <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> 

Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?


To all,

DNA testing does not test your ancestors.  What it does is match your 
DNA to anyone else who has submitted their DNA to the same databank.  
By matching up DNA strands, they can determine if others in the same 
databank have a high probability of being your relative (i.e., similar 
DNA strands).  The DNA only gets to two people working together to 
determine how they are actually related.

I am no expert, but there are at least three different types of tests:

The Y-DNA test to search for the ancestry of your father's father's 
father's father (and so on).  So far as I know at present, it does not 
match you to anyone other than a descendant of that direct line of 
fathers, and is apparently only of use to determine which part of the 
world your pre-modern-era father's father came from.

Next is the mtDNA, and this only tracks the ancestry of your mother's 
mother's mother's mother (etc).  It is likewise only good to determine 
which part of the world your pre-modern era mother's mother came from.

Finally, there is the Autosomal DNA.  This DNA test is used to 
determine who your relatives are, both male and female, for the last 
five to six generations.    This is the test that I had done, and the 
company called My Family Tree DNA (https://my.familytreedna.com/) found 
matches for me to look at.  I was a bit leary as to how this all 
worked, so in addition to my DNA, all that I gave them was my direct 
line surnames, and the countries where they resided.  I got back a lot 
of results that look primising, but so far have only been able to 
determine a relationship for one of those results.  The link that I 
found was not a direct line ancestor surname, but rather the great 
grandson of my grandfather's sister.  The predicted relationship was a 
4th cousin, but he is actually my 2nd cousin, twice removed.  I guess 
if you figure that both relationships are 4 times removed from me, then 
the predicton was correct.  The other relationships have not yet been 
proven, but that is likely only because the people I am matched to do 
not know enough of their (and my) genealogy to figure it out yet.

Gary Warner
Gig Harbor, WA

On 9/11/2013 12:25 PM, Gerald Klatt wrote:
> Same question from me. I eagerly wait the reply.
>
> Gerald
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Buss" <dbuss at rogers.com>
> To: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>; "SGGEElistserv list" 
> <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>
>
>> Hello Otto,
>> Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the 
>> major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or 
>> me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample 
>> spit, or whatever?????.
>> Dan B.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>
>> To: "SGGEElistserv list" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:52 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>>
>>
>>> Good morning Listers!
>>> The question has been asked many times.  I've wanted to submit a 
>>> reply but did not take time to do so. . . so many e-letters to type.
>>> But then, perhaps I just procrastinate.
>>>
>>> I know there are many on the List and also SGGEE members who have 
>>> taken the test I am discussing here, one I feel is a helper to 
>>> paper-trail research. The participants can speak for themselves. I 
>>> am willing to answer questions limited to this test and its use but 
>>> will do so privately.
>>>
>>> I am involved in both paper-trail and DNA research and receive the 
>>> same delight from a new paper record of a past relative of mine as 
>>> from a DNA match without a paper. The signature of a g.g.g. 
>>> grandfather on paper, Wow.-the DNA genetic shift because of just one 
>>> marital union, Wow.
>>> This is today, we cannot have the chicken without the egg. Both is 
>>> better. Like a right and left hand washing dishes. SGGEE and 
>>> 23andMe, a symbiotic relationship.
>>>
>>> The question that has come to the fore ofttimes, "Of what value is 
>>> DNA testing?
>>> There must be a value because the field is growing tremendously.
>>>
>>> DNA testing proves to be an adjunct to paper-trail research.
>>> Paper-trail research proves to be an adjunct to DNA trail research.
>>> I see no difference between the two. . . except DNA records are more 
>>> accurate.
>>>
>>> Paper-trail offers a written legal pedigree, that is, in accordance 
>>> with all the relevant rules.
>>> DNA offers a biological pedigree (we must view ourselves as a lump 
>>> of information, code; no bluffing in the code).
>>> I always think of a stateside cartoon series (the funny paper) of 
>>> the past; Popeye, the sailer-man and his saying, "I yam what I yam 
>>> and tha's all what I yam."  So goes it with DNA testing.
>>>
>>> "What benefit is DNA testing for paper-trail genealogy?"
>>> Civil paper records "state" I am my father's son. They are my legal 
>>> identification.
>>> *note: A woman on the DNA site enjoyed the test so much (all of that 
>>> info!) but not possessing a Y chromosome (female are X~X, no male 
>>> Y~X) badgered her paper-trail father into taking the test, paid for 
>>> it as a stimulus. He finally agreed. She waited impatiently for the 
>>> results-they finally arrived!  No match. . . not your father. . 
>>> .Time to talk to Mom.
>>> DNA biological records prove it out. They are biological 
>>> identification.
>>> DNA testing has released many persons wrongly convicted on criminal 
>>> charges.
>>>
>>> Types of DNA testing:
>>> "STR" testing for "Haplotype" will prove out that I am my son's father.
>>> Short Tandem Repeats -STR, a favorite in forensics.
>>>
>>> and 23andMe spit-testing
>>> "SNP" testing for "Haplogroup" (23andme) will provide a 23 
>>> chromosome, 1,000,000 + markers big picture test leading into the 
>>> distant past.
>>> Single Nucleotide polymorphism -SNPs,  valuable in study of disease 
>>> development and critical in personalized medicine. For genealogy 
>>> purposes it provides a 23 chromosome based view of what genes a 
>>> person is knit from.
>>>
>>> -It creates a "Y-Haplogroup", based on the Y chromosome which 
>>> contains markers passed from father to father to father into the 
>>> distant past.
>>>
>>> My Y-Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a1*, the base group is "R" and each 
>>> character after the initial R represents a mutation, for example, 
>>> 1-b-1-b-2-a-1-a-1-*,  the asterisk marks an as of yet unclassified 
>>> mutation.  I refer to it as Mother Nature's latest software code 
>>> update.
>>>
>>> -it creates a mtDNA-Haplogroup, based on the DNA of mitochondria in 
>>> the red blood cells, passed from mother to mother to mother and so 
>>> on into the distant past.
>>>
>>> My mtDNA-Haplogroup is H1, the base group is "H" and each character 
>>> after the initial H represents a mutation.
>>>
>>> So. . . What has it offered me besides my health scenario. . . (Yo! 
>>> Mon!-Sheesh, I thought so. . . now I know it for sure and live 
>>> accordingly)
>>> Health includes Health Risks, Drug Response, Inherited Conditions, 
>>> Traits, Health Tools
>>>
>>> DNA testing pointed me to the shorelines of the North Sea and 
>>> beyond, laying claim to being an ancient inhabitant of Doggerland, 
>>> now lying beneath the North Sea since the last glacial meltdown.  
>>> This immediately redirected my paper-trail research to the Baltic 
>>> Sea coast and west to the North Sea coast.  The "Cluster Effect" 
>>> came to the fore as I searched for similar peoples moving along the 
>>> coast to eastern territories. I am making headway-"can't know where 
>>> you are going until you know where you coming from."
>>>
>>> What else did genetic testing with 23andme provide for me?
>>> -It provided me with my "Ancestry Composition"- My mixed gene bag of 
>>> who I really am. Amazing!
>>> -It provided me with my "Maternal Line" History (research can also 
>>> be conducted online (google, Wiki,etc) using just the haplogroup 
>>> characters)
>>> -It provided me with my "Paternal Line" History (ditto)
>>> -It provide me with my "Neanderthal Ancestry" (2.6%. . . my deceased 
>>> wife always accused me of carrying some markers-I accused her family 
>>> of carrying many markers. . . her brother tested Y-haplogroup 
>>> R1b1b2a1a1. . . @ 2.9% Neanderthal (yeh! I knew it!)
>>> Well, I at least remain the latest haplogroup update. . .*)
>>>
>>> -"Ancestry Tools" box has a variety of algorithms to play with-I 
>>> like "Global Similarity."
>>>
>>> -It provided me (to date)  "DNA Relatives.", with 766 biological 
>>> relatives.
>>> Some are paper-trail verified-(They must also be spit-tested and 
>>> part of the database group.)
>>> A few verified paper-trailers follow:
>>> I ran 23andme application ("Family Traits" algorithm) and tested 
>>> myself against myself. . . Yup! 100% me.  "I yam what I yam and 
>>> tha's all what I yam."
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> son. . .50% me. (it is my son!)
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> first cousin. .  Yup! 1st cousin maternal side!
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 3rd 
>>> cousin. . . 3rd cousin he is!
>>>
>>> -Without a present day paper-trail ID, in  "DNA Relatives.", Norman 
>>> Radke rates as a 5th cousin, his offspring rate as cousins, Donald 
>>> Miller rates as a 5th cousin, Earl Schultz rates as a 10th cousin 
>>> and so on. Albert Muth and I are very similar genetically but not 
>>> part of a direct line of descent even though Albert is also a cousin 
>>> to Donald Miller. . . and Meta Fife.
>>>
>>> This is just the beginning. Many more names will be added to the  
>>> "DNA Relatives" relative list.  Once a DNA connection is 
>>> established, contact must be established and a paper-trail 
>>> connection needs to be made.  In checking the 23andme site for the 
>>> number of cousins, I noticed another close female relative I have 
>>> the paper-trail for. . . Gotta write to her.
>>>
>>> -It provides me with my "Gene Comparison" to the rest of the 23andme 
>>> group. ( birds of a feather do flock together)
>>>
>>> It provides me with my "Family Traits", an application, (algorithm) 
>>> which I use to compare my genes with all who have agreed to share 
>>> with me at 23andme. Your  actual DNA code is never seen by others 
>>> and vice-versa. 23andme computer algorithms do the work for you. 
>>> Quickly.
>>>
>>> -One can also participate in their research. . .  With paper-trail 
>>> and DNA trail pursuits, my time is limited.
>>>
>>> -A "Community Site" and "Blog" exists for answers to questions.
>>>
>>> . . .  Otto
>>>        " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>>>                _____________________________________
>>>                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

 


From otto at schienke.com  Thu Sep 12 13:24:19 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 16:24:19 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing Explained
Message-ID: <43AE5F4C-1CC0-441C-8961-BB0E505DF105@schienke.com>

Hearty greetings Listers,

This is a follow-up to yesterday's topic.

Dan Buss already wrote me and apologized for his bible-based jest; I informed him it had me grinning and I appreciated it, read the book many times and enjoy it. Yet this is not about belief, it is about the tremendously growing field of biological science, molecular genetics. I want to thank those who also sent letters, always willing to help. Good questions are the best ones, I learn.

DNA. . .  we talk about what we do not see.  The topic generates confusion, the more discussion the greater the confusion. . . The original topic disappears into the fog.  I admit, some do not want to see the unseeable.  I, for one, find the results very satisfying. I am 76 years of age, doing paper-trail genealogy since 16 years of age. I may yet find myself.

Years ago DNA testing came to the fore. A fascinating concept and a bioscience field, I began researching the subject. DNA testing was at a foundling stage. All that was available were short tandem repeat (STR) tests used in forensic science which used only a few markers. Tests were performed with 12 marker, 25 marker, 37 marker and so, creating "haplotypes."
"Many genetic testing companies use the term 'haplotype' to refer to an individual collection of short tandem repeat (STR) allele mutations within a genetic segment, while using the term 'haplogroup' to refer to the SNP/unique-event polymorphism (UEP) mutations which represents the clade to which a collection of potential haplotypes belong (the term clade referring to a set of people sharing a common ancestor)"

As I searched the company Gary used , the more little tests offered, the more confusing it became with little left for value and useful information. I was a dog chasing my tail.  "I already knew who my father was. . . so help me, next time a rich one, good looks are not everything."

I'd previously discussed DNA testing with Karl who stated, "Wait 20 years , by then a full genome for $1,000.00." Fine and dandy. Most of us are old. . . Old with a capital O and cannot wait 20 years. I am thankful (so was Al) I convinced Albert Muth to test with 23andme (he had done one of those 12 marker type tests and was fully discouraged and disappointed). Here today. .  gone tomorrow. So many of my friends are paving the way. I compared DNA with Linda Pauling-close but not my direct line even though many relatives were from the Lipno Parish.

*See Wikipedia topics "Haplotype" and "Haplogroup"

I wanted a broad spectrum analysis. I found two companies, DeCodeMe and later 23andMe offering 560,000 marker tests for $1,000.00 I discovered their tests were SNP (single nucleotide morphism) tests. It was called an "autosomal" broad-spectrum test. Being tight-fisted, I could not part with the $1,000.00 even though I wanted to see over the horizon into the distant past.

What now?  
I called my son at Penn State U. and laid my case on his desk. What do I do?  He spoke with his friend, head of Penn State molecular anthropology/genetics (whose own concentration is forensics) and received a quick reply, one name only, 23andMe. He, his family, relatives and surprisingly my son, had already tested with them. he uses their tests for lab research in blocks of 100.  By the time I finished dragging my feet, (remember, tight-fisted) 23andMe had dropped the price of their autosomal test of 560,000 markers to $400.00. . . I went for it. Ways to extract information and results kept increasing almost monthly.

I think I actually shed a tear (tight-fisted) when 23andMe updated to a 1,000,000 plus marker multi-array lab equipment and then slowly dropped the price to an outstanding one-time fee of $99.00 for the spit-test and membership to their (necessary) encrypted website.  The $99.00 fee was introduced to increase their membership DNA database to over 1,000,000 persons quickly. it is already at 300,000 plus persons. 

The greatest benefit to us, the paper-trailers, is being in the same database, one which screens out related persons automatically.  Having DNA code is good, having someone to compare it to is better.  Many List and SGGEE members are already part of the 23andMe database.     
         Paving the "paper-trail" is up to us.  Al Muth would have liked that. . .


. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From garyw555 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 12 15:45:06 2013
From: garyw555 at gmail.com (Gary Warner)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 15:45:06 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing Explained
In-Reply-To: <43AE5F4C-1CC0-441C-8961-BB0E505DF105@schienke.com>
References: <43AE5F4C-1CC0-441C-8961-BB0E505DF105@schienke.com>
Message-ID: <523243F2.3090800@gmail.com>

Otto,

I am told that all of the major companies (23andME, myFTDNA, and 
Ancestry) all use the same protocol to test the spit for the Autosomal 
test.   If that is the case, then the only big issue is that being in 
one database does not also place you in the databases of the other two.  
Not sure if they all also use the same protocols for the Y-DNA and mtDNA.

Gary Warner

On 9/12/2013 1:24 PM, Otto wrote:
> Hearty greetings Listers,
>
> This is a follow-up to yesterday's topic.
>
> Dan Buss already wrote me and apologized for his bible-based jest; I informed him it had me grinning and I appreciated it, read the book many times and enjoy it. Yet this is not about belief, it is about the tremendously growing field of biological science, molecular genetics. I want to thank those who also sent letters, always willing to help. Good questions are the best ones, I learn.
>
> DNA. . .  we talk about what we do not see.  The topic generates confusion, the more discussion the greater the confusion. . . The original topic disappears into the fog.  I admit, some do not want to see the unseeable.  I, for one, find the results very satisfying. I am 76 years of age, doing paper-trail genealogy since 16 years of age. I may yet find myself.
>
> Years ago DNA testing came to the fore. A fascinating concept and a bioscience field, I began researching the subject. DNA testing was at a foundling stage. All that was available were short tandem repeat (STR) tests used in forensic science which used only a few markers. Tests were performed with 12 marker, 25 marker, 37 marker and so, creating "haplotypes."
> "Many genetic testing companies use the term 'haplotype' to refer to an individual collection of short tandem repeat (STR) allele mutations within a genetic segment, while using the term 'haplogroup' to refer to the SNP/unique-event polymorphism (UEP) mutations which represents the clade to which a collection of potential haplotypes belong (the term clade referring to a set of people sharing a common ancestor)"
>
> As I searched the company Gary used , the more little tests offered, the more confusing it became with little left for value and useful information. I was a dog chasing my tail.  "I already knew who my father was. . . so help me, next time a rich one, good looks are not everything."
>
> I'd previously discussed DNA testing with Karl who stated, "Wait 20 years , by then a full genome for $1,000.00." Fine and dandy. Most of us are old. . . Old with a capital O and cannot wait 20 years. I am thankful (so was Al) I convinced Albert Muth to test with 23andme (he had done one of those 12 marker type tests and was fully discouraged and disappointed). Here today. .  gone tomorrow. So many of my friends are paving the way. I compared DNA with Linda Pauling-close but not my direct line even though many relatives were from the Lipno Parish.
>
> *See Wikipedia topics "Haplotype" and "Haplogroup"
>
> I wanted a broad spectrum analysis. I found two companies, DeCodeMe and later 23andMe offering 560,000 marker tests for $1,000.00 I discovered their tests were SNP (single nucleotide morphism) tests. It was called an "autosomal" broad-spectrum test. Being tight-fisted, I could not part with the $1,000.00 even though I wanted to see over the horizon into the distant past.
>
> What now?
> I called my son at Penn State U. and laid my case on his desk. What do I do?  He spoke with his friend, head of Penn State molecular anthropology/genetics (whose own concentration is forensics) and received a quick reply, one name only, 23andMe. He, his family, relatives and surprisingly my son, had already tested with them. he uses their tests for lab research in blocks of 100.  By the time I finished dragging my feet, (remember, tight-fisted) 23andMe had dropped the price of their autosomal test of 560,000 markers to $400.00. . . I went for it. Ways to extract information and results kept increasing almost monthly.
>
> I think I actually shed a tear (tight-fisted) when 23andMe updated to a 1,000,000 plus marker multi-array lab equipment and then slowly dropped the price to an outstanding one-time fee of $99.00 for the spit-test and membership to their (necessary) encrypted website.  The $99.00 fee was introduced to increase their membership DNA database to over 1,000,000 persons quickly. it is already at 300,000 plus persons.
>
> The greatest benefit to us, the paper-trailers, is being in the same database, one which screens out related persons automatically.  Having DNA code is good, having someone to compare it to is better.  Many List and SGGEE members are already part of the 23andMe database.
>           Paving the "paper-trail" is up to us.  Al Muth would have liked that. . .
>
>
> . . .   Otto
>           " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>                  _____________________________________
>                    "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
>



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Thu Sep 12 16:50:09 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 19:50:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] where is Heimthal and what is modern name
Message-ID: <8D07E29F289B965-F80-FAD0@webmail-m222.sysops.aol.com>


Hello, Years ago this mailing list gave me much help. My thanks to you all. I am again lost. 

QUESTION ONE: What is the modern day name of Heimthal, Zhitomir, Russia? Is it located NW of Zhitomir or NW of Novohrad-Volhynsk? If you have the lat/long coordinates, that would be so helpful. Or web sites that hold some information re: Heimthal. Thank you!

I have 2 differing facts in my own writings:
 "Heimthal is now called Jasinowka and is located 40 miles NW of Luts'k in oblast Volyn." 
 "Heimthal is now called Jasinowka  and is located NW of Zhitomir in oblast Zhitomir."

I am quite certain that Jasinowka is indeed NW of Luts'k about 40 miles.
Jasinowka: Latitude 50.983333 / 50? 58' 59.9988" Longitude 24.95 / 24? 56' 59.9994" Province Volyns'ka Oblast' 

And I am quite certain that my grandmother in Heimthal, was not just 40 mi. from Luts'k, where other family members lived. 


Since Heimthal is in Zhitomir, that would prove that Heimthal is NOT called Jasinowka in modern day. 

I DREAD TO SAY THAT I THINK I HAVE MADE A BIG MISTAKE IN THE LOCATION and NAME OF modern day HEIMTHAL!  Any input would be appreciated. 

QUESTION TWO, if I may: 
My ggrandfather Herman Ho(e)ser married Louise Weichman (mother=Bonderman) and baptized 9 children in Lutheran parishes in and near Heimthal.  Subsequently they emigrated from Heimthal. I am looking for Louise's mother's family members - Bonderman, and am searching both Christian and Jewish records. I had found no records in the past, searching St Pet church/Heimthal/JewGen/Russian town records - all from the comfort of my home. (I don't live near a LDS library.)  Any ideas re: where to look? 

Thank you all for any help that you can give me, 
Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Thu Sep 12 17:11:31 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 20:11:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Prussian AND German Patriots
Message-ID: <8D07E2CEECA7075-F80-FC93@webmail-m222.sysops.aol.com>


Hello, 
My maternal grandmother farmed near the town of Posen - before she came to American. My paternal gg grandfather and g grandfather farmed near the town of Bromberg - before they left for Russia. Both Posen and Bromberg were considered Prussia while they lived there.

Both of my grandmothers were very proud to be called both Prussian and German. It seemed to be a "feather in their caps" that they were both. The one of course, was ultimately German, then Prussian, and then Russian!

BTW:  My German Russian Grandmother married a German Swiss and they both spoke with very different German accents! and ate different foods. 

My Posen grandmother who learned high German in school - mandatory at the time - married a Berlin grandfather who spoke low German and hadn't learned it in school. They argued all the time, because Grandma felt superior. I learned a little German from both grandparents: the Our Father from my grandma and swear words from my grandpa!

QUESTION: Anyone ever heard of Murska? it was a breakfast dumpling the Posen grandma made.

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Thu Sep 12 17:25:54 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 18:25:54 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] where is Heimthal and what is modern name
In-Reply-To: <8D07E29F289B965-F80-FAD0@webmail-m222.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1523212028.18552110.1379031954778.JavaMail.root@cds026>

Charlotte,


1.  Heimtal has been variously known as Staraja Buda (or Huta), Karolinowka and the modern Jasinowka / Yasinivka.  Coordinates on Google Maps are 50.572063,28.189702

2.  I have never known of any Heimtal recorded in the Lutsk region though you are correct that there is a Jasinowka / Jasienowka in that area.

3.  Hermann and Louise are in the St. Pete database with at least two, probably 3 children recorded there.  The third one does not show the mother's name.  They are living in or in the region of Heimtal.  There are no Bondermann in the St. Pete records.  There are also no Bondermann in our other databases.  Without a location or at least a region, it is difficult to recommend where to look.



Jerry







----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:50:09 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] where is Heimthal and what is modern name


Hello, Years ago this mailing list gave me much help. My thanks to you all. I am again lost. 

QUESTION ONE: What is the modern day name of Heimthal, Zhitomir, Russia? Is it located NW of Zhitomir or NW of Novohrad-Volhynsk? If you have the lat/long coordinates, that would be so helpful. Or web sites that hold some information re: Heimthal. Thank you!

I have 2 differing facts in my own writings:
 "Heimthal is now called Jasinowka and is located 40 miles NW of Luts'k in oblast Volyn." 
 "Heimthal is now called Jasinowka  and is located NW of Zhitomir in oblast Zhitomir."

I am quite certain that Jasinowka is indeed NW of Luts'k about 40 miles.
Jasinowka: Latitude 50.983333 / 50? 58' 59.9988" Longitude 24.95 / 24? 56' 59.9994" Province Volyns'ka Oblast' 

And I am quite certain that my grandmother in Heimthal, was not just 40 mi. from Luts'k, where other family members lived. 


Since Heimthal is in Zhitomir, that would prove that Heimthal is NOT called Jasinowka in modern day. 

I DREAD TO SAY THAT I THINK I HAVE MADE A BIG MISTAKE IN THE LOCATION and NAME OF modern day HEIMTHAL!  Any input would be appreciated. 

QUESTION TWO, if I may: 
My ggrandfather Herman Ho(e)ser married Louise Weichman (mother=Bonderman) and baptized 9 children in Lutheran parishes in and near Heimthal.  Subsequently they emigrated from Heimthal. I am looking for Louise's mother's family members - Bonderman, and am searching both Christian and Jewish records. I had found no records in the past, searching St Pet church/Heimthal/JewGen/Russian town records - all from the comfort of my home. (I don't live near a LDS library.)  Any ideas re: where to look? 

Thank you all for any help that you can give me, 
Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From Krampetz at aol.com  Thu Sep 12 19:32:02 2013
From: Krampetz at aol.com (Krampetz at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 22:32:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA database
Message-ID: <931a7.373be329.3f63d322@aol.com>

Do any of the DNA database's allow anyone to see if specific surnames
had registered their DNA?
 
I've not been interested in this as I was looking for real  cousins.   But,
if I were to find a couple of surnames of my not-too-common surname  or
others in my tree,  I could much more easily be persuaded to take the 
test..
 
I looked at 23andme,  and they are certainly not thinking like I  am..
 
 
 

From walters.cathy at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 12 20:59:40 2013
From: walters.cathy at yahoo.com (Cathy Walters)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 20:59:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Thank you Karl & Otto
Message-ID: <1379044780.95800.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

My grand fathers cousin's Rossin descendant-through female line- wanted me & my nephew or my ?male 1st cousin Rossin take 23 & me .

My nephew wouldn't respond-though I said I 'd pay for it, I don't blame him being the reason he was born with problems & no insurance would cover him at birth & through life-til he joined Coast Guards, ?as a lifer. ? ? My first cousin is under treatments for cancer-I don't know how or if this be a problem ?

My dilemma is they won't take anything but credit card, my son I asked if he would allow me to go through his- twice -he has been thinking about it since last December, our mail box has been waiting since May for him to post. ?He is a busy person.

I want mine & my sis-done, Rossin male, would want a female on my grand mothers sisters female descendant-should give Vedder/Fedder line.

Rossin's are from kr. Mogilno, Prov.of Posen, Prussia, believe we are related to those of other kreise's & may solve Rossin v/s Rosin, Rosien, Rozyn,etc...

Vedder mid-late 1700's, Fedder circa 1810-1815 Wischin Hauland kr.Kolmar,Prov.of Posen, Prussia-to 1918/20.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Cathy, Elgin, Minnesota
?
? ALWAYS A ROSE 

From eldonsr at msn.com  Thu Sep 12 21:08:44 2013
From: eldonsr at msn.com (Eldon Butler)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 21:08:44 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Address Change
In-Reply-To: <mailman.17.1379039527.6299.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.17.1379039527.6299.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <COL126-W5057D15F3376F8928DC186A83B0@phx.gbl>

NEW ADDRESS:    janrrb at msn.com

Eldon & Jan Butler
Phone: 253-848-8398
Fax: 253-445-1413
e-mail: eldonsr at msn.com
 
> From: ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org
> Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue 14
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 19:32:07 -0700
> 
> ****************************************************
 		 	   		  

From dfoote at okstate.edu  Thu Sep 12 21:26:22 2013
From: dfoote at okstate.edu (Foote, Daniel)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:26:22 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects
Message-ID: <CAM2-tYUFkGWzFiuNsVQv+RadEFiBGGORi0cofMRE9U6vsbpz5Q@mail.gmail.com>

My 2 cents:
- As hinted at by another, 'Prussian' was originally a Baltic ethnic group
and Baltic language. The ethnic group was largely assimilated by the 12-13
century 'crusades' of the Tuetonic Knights. The Prussian language is
documented (vocabulary lists, catechism) up to the 16th century. In the
modern era, there are a 'Low Prussian' and a 'High Prussian' (See Wikipedia
for outlines)

- 'Ish' reveals influence from southern and central High German dialects.
The other end of the spectrum, Low German (as well as Dutch, Frisian) is
'Ik'. Central High German is in the middle, '/ix/' (IPA, like Scottish
'loch')

- In the small town of Corn, Oklahoma and its surroundings, there was a
significant population of Germans from Russia or Poland. The majority were
Low German speaking Mennonites from Russia/Ukraine/Volhynia/Crimea. Others
were from Russian Poland who mostly had reverted to High German by the
1850s. (The Mennonites along the Vistula had come from Dutch/Low German
areas, spoke Dutch in church until 1750s, while quickly adapting to the
Vistula Low German)  We have my great-aunt and my grandfather (who had a
father born near Warsaw) on video recalling a joke. The Low Germans
(Plattdeutsch/Plautdietsch) spoke a German that was  'platt und verdreht':
flat and twisted. They recalled this in the presence of my grandfather's
wife, who was from a Low German family. She chuckled. This is one of the
few vivid memories I have of them, since they all pased in the mid- 1990s
when I was in my teens. (Yes, I'm one of the youngsters of the list)

- Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Perogies. However, I do know that
Borscht is tomato and chicken based ;) , Zweiback are soft, sweet yeast
rolls (not large crackers), Verenika is plain yummy and
Porzelki/Niejakoakja are fabulously sinful.


From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Thu Sep 12 21:39:55 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:39:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
Message-ID: <8D07E526DEC46F7-233C-11DEC@webmail-d209.sysops.aol.com>


My four German grandparents all settled in the Dakotahs.

Two of my grandparents' families were from Prussia, one from Russia, and one from Switzerland. As late as the 1940s, I remember both Prussian families telling their girls that they could NOT date those Russian boys! The "German" families did not want to mingle with the "Russian" families. Not at barn dances, not at church. 

The German Swiss family? They didn't want their children to date either Russians OR Norwegians!! One of their sons loved a Norwegian, and the Swiss parents would NOT let them marry. They ultimately did, but had to separate at the court house. 

When my German Swiss grandfather wanted to marry my German Russian grandmother, the parents again tried to intervene. This time it didn't work. The couple left SD to farm in ND, where they lived happily ever after until death.

And then my mother did it. She married a German from Russia, which was generally frowned upon in ND even in the 1930s. She often times insulted him for his background, but pretty much lived happily ever after.

Me? I married a half German, some French, rest Scotch/English/Irish with maybe even a little Am. Indian in there -  60 years ago, so guess we lived "happily ever after". :) Our children skipped school on "Family Tree" days!

Charlotte 
hoeserhistory at aol.com

These stats may not be interesting to all, but I found them quite interesting myself: 
I recently read that ND and SD had more Germans settlers than any other states with MN not too far behind. Today, South Dakota is 40% German, and southern central part of North Dakota was known as "the German-Russian triangle". North Dakota registered the highest number percentage of German immigrants in 1910 for the mid states at 18 percent.


From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Thu Sep 12 21:50:47 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:50:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German speaking churches in WWII
Message-ID: <8D07E53F29C1532-233C-11E87@webmail-d209.sysops.aol.com>


...My late mother once told me that during WWI while the Allies had blockaded 
Germany, depriving  non-combatants food, in violation of the rules of war, 
her German Reformed pastor near Stratford, Wisconsin...

Doesn't seem that America was that tolerant come WWII:

My families attended German-speaking German Lutheran Churches in Jamestown, Fargo, ND areas and Madison, Huron SD areas. 

During WWII they had to stop all services spoken in German, and had to go to English - even though some members didn't understand English. 

I had aunts and uncles near Madison, Wisconsin, and it was the same there: they stopped having church services in German. 


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From jkaut at xplornet.com  Fri Sep 13 05:55:41 2013
From: jkaut at xplornet.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Kaut?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 06:55:41 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects
In-Reply-To: <CAM2-tYUFkGWzFiuNsVQv+RadEFiBGGORi0cofMRE9U6vsbpz5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM2-tYUFkGWzFiuNsVQv+RadEFiBGGORi0cofMRE9U6vsbpz5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D89D870C3D944E93BE33068F68DAACF7@JIDDCONSULTIPC>

verenika and perogies are basically the same food, different names

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Foote, Daniel" <dfoote at okstate.edu>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects


> My 2 cents:
> - As hinted at by another, 'Prussian' was originally a Baltic ethnic group
> and Baltic language. The ethnic group was largely assimilated by the 12-13
> century 'crusades' of the Tuetonic Knights. The Prussian language is
> documented (vocabulary lists, catechism) up to the 16th century. In the
> modern era, there are a 'Low Prussian' and a 'High Prussian' (See 
> Wikipedia
> for outlines)
>
> - 'Ish' reveals influence from southern and central High German dialects.
> The other end of the spectrum, Low German (as well as Dutch, Frisian) is
> 'Ik'. Central High German is in the middle, '/ix/' (IPA, like Scottish
> 'loch')
>
> - In the small town of Corn, Oklahoma and its surroundings, there was a
> significant population of Germans from Russia or Poland. The majority were
> Low German speaking Mennonites from Russia/Ukraine/Volhynia/Crimea. Others
> were from Russian Poland who mostly had reverted to High German by the
> 1850s. (The Mennonites along the Vistula had come from Dutch/Low German
> areas, spoke Dutch in church until 1750s, while quickly adapting to the
> Vistula Low German)  We have my great-aunt and my grandfather (who had a
> father born near Warsaw) on video recalling a joke. The Low Germans
> (Plattdeutsch/Plautdietsch) spoke a German that was  'platt und verdreht':
> flat and twisted. They recalled this in the presence of my grandfather's
> wife, who was from a Low German family. She chuckled. This is one of the
> few vivid memories I have of them, since they all pased in the mid- 1990s
> when I was in my teens. (Yes, I'm one of the youngsters of the list)
>
> - Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Perogies. However, I do know that
> Borscht is tomato and chicken based ;) , Zweiback are soft, sweet yeast
> rolls (not large crackers), Verenika is plain yummy and
> Porzelki/Niejakoakja are fabulously sinful.
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 




From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Fri Sep 13 06:06:51 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 07:06:51 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects
In-Reply-To: <D89D870C3D944E93BE33068F68DAACF7@JIDDCONSULTIPC>
Message-ID: <816771773.18755819.1379077611502.JavaMail.root@cds026>

And borscht is beet, not tomato based - or at least a good one should be.  <grin>

In Poland it tends to be more of a beet broth but in Ukraine they add more vegetables and possibly meat.


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: "J?rgen Kaut" <jkaut at xplornet.com>
To: "Daniel Foote" <dfoote at okstate.edu>, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 6:55:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects

verenika and perogies are basically the same food, different names

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Foote, Daniel" <dfoote at okstate.edu>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects


> My 2 cents:
> - As hinted at by another, 'Prussian' was originally a Baltic ethnic group
> and Baltic language. The ethnic group was largely assimilated by the 12-13
> century 'crusades' of the Tuetonic Knights. The Prussian language is
> documented (vocabulary lists, catechism) up to the 16th century. In the
> modern era, there are a 'Low Prussian' and a 'High Prussian' (See 
> Wikipedia
> for outlines)
>
> - 'Ish' reveals influence from southern and central High German dialects.
> The other end of the spectrum, Low German (as well as Dutch, Frisian) is
> 'Ik'. Central High German is in the middle, '/ix/' (IPA, like Scottish
> 'loch')
>
> - In the small town of Corn, Oklahoma and its surroundings, there was a
> significant population of Germans from Russia or Poland. The majority were
> Low German speaking Mennonites from Russia/Ukraine/Volhynia/Crimea. Others
> were from Russian Poland who mostly had reverted to High German by the
> 1850s. (The Mennonites along the Vistula had come from Dutch/Low German
> areas, spoke Dutch in church until 1750s, while quickly adapting to the
> Vistula Low German)  We have my great-aunt and my grandfather (who had a
> father born near Warsaw) on video recalling a joke. The Low Germans
> (Plattdeutsch/Plautdietsch) spoke a German that was  'platt und verdreht':
> flat and twisted. They recalled this in the presence of my grandfather's
> wife, who was from a Low German family. She chuckled. This is one of the
> few vivid memories I have of them, since they all pased in the mid- 1990s
> when I was in my teens. (Yes, I'm one of the youngsters of the list)
>
> - Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Perogies. However, I do know that
> Borscht is tomato and chicken based ;) , Zweiback are soft, sweet yeast
> rolls (not large crackers), Verenika is plain yummy and
> Porzelki/Niejakoakja are fabulously sinful.
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 


_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From kbrowne01518 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 13 06:29:24 2013
From: kbrowne01518 at gmail.com (Kenneth Browne)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 09:29:24 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German speaking churches in WWII and WWI
In-Reply-To: <8D07E53F29C1532-233C-11E87@webmail-d209.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D07E53F29C1532-233C-11E87@webmail-d209.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <52331334.5080409@gmail.com>

On 09/13/2013 12:50 AM, Charlotte Dubay wrote:
> During WWII they had to stop all services spoken in German, and had to go to English - even though some members didn't understand English.
"had to" implies government intervention. My understanding of this 
issue has always been that German immigrants chose to not speak German 
(in public, at least) because it would expose their German-ness to 
their non German neighbors, and given that America was at war with 
Germany, that's not hard to understand. Japanese-Americans had no such 
option because of their obvious facial characteristics. Hence the 
internment camps that put loyal Japanese-Americans in prisons...for 
the duration.

My maternal grandfather, born of German-Polish father and mother 
(brick wall, but possibly from Alsace-Lorraine), was born in Chicago 
and though the family was Lutheran, I've discovered the possibility 
that they were Jewish in a 1931 letter from great-grandfather Samuel 
Lachmann's "sister in law" Beile Lachmann. Gpa Lachmann died when I 
was in my 30's but I never saw him after he 'vowed not to come back' 
to Boston again when I was just 5 or 6 years old. He and mom split 
over different religious views. Interestingly, two of his siblings 
shared the same religion as my mom (an I).

What I know of my grandfather supports the idea that he "hid" his 
German-ness. He was in the U.S. Marines during WWI and was stationed 
at the Charlestown, MA naval yard. He spent his entire time in the 
military, apparently on shore watch on Cape Ann, MA. My theory is that 
the military didn't send him to Europe over fears that his ethnicity 
could lead to disloyal conduct.
In addition, Grandpa Lachmann became a radically disposed hater of 
Jews, blacks, and other "inferior" types. He likely was a member of 
the John Birch Society although based on some published letters to the 
editor, of which I have copies, the JBS may have been a little too 
liberal for his tastes.

I don't know if he was aware of the cited 1931 letter (written in 
Yiddish) but if it turns out that his father was Jewish, but converted 
to Lutheranism after migrating to the U.S. Gpa Lachmann would "roll 
over in his grave." AFAIK, Great grandpa Lachmann and his younger 
brother Andreas were the only siblings who left Poland/Volhynia for 
the U.S. Via the Momose database I've discovered there were as many as 
nine boys and girls born between 1855 and 1877. Two males other than 
Samuel and Andreas were Daniel (b. 1868) and Karl (b. 1870). I don't 
know anything about them beyond dob. Two other males were born and 
died as infants. Daniel and Karl were born in Vincentow and Witschin, 
respectively.

-- 
Kenneth Browne researching: BROWN(E) LEIGHTON TAYLOR CLOUGH/CLUFF 
LACHMANN RUSSELL NOURSE MORSE PETTENGILL NOBLE SMALL WOLF MROCH 
LUEDTKE HECKBERT MANTEI


From rolands_gross at web.de  Fri Sep 13 07:20:23 2013
From: rolands_gross at web.de (Roland Gross)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:20:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Acestors Krasnoritschka
Message-ID: <trinity-4ac2a75e-4121-4a05-b911-8bdfedb782df-1379082023876@3capp-webde-bs35>

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From loisarlene2001 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 13 08:31:35 2013
From: loisarlene2001 at yahoo.com (lois bolnick)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:31:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] EV. LUTHERAN CHURCH RECORDS
Message-ID: <1379086295.46365.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thank you, Robin, for helping me to try and find my relatives from Volhynia..? As I stated in my original post, I am up in my 80s and know VERY little about all the changes that occur daily on IT.? I thoroughly enjoyed reading ODESSA3.ORG .? Unfortunately, my relatives were not part of that group.? However, My relatives (HALB and PYK/PIECK) were in Eureka, Dakota Territory at the same time the GR were flowing into this territory.

My relatives had homesteaded in Tyndall, Bon Homme, Dakota Territory from 1873-1885 (this was in the southern part of what is now South Dakota) and moved to Eureka.? Two children were born there in 1885 and 1888.? Their oldest daughter was married in Eureka in 1889 in her father's house.? The whole family, including the newly married, then moved, almost immediately,?to Swanwick, Perry, Illinois.? I am surmising that they, not being GR, they did not "fit in".? I often wonder why they went to Illinois.? I have found no other relatives there.

Can you tell me just what VOLHYNIA territory comprises.? I am not familiar with that area.? I guess that is why I have never known where to search for records.? Only on the 1880? Bon Homme census did Mrs. Halbe (Pieck) say she was from RUS/POLAND.? All their other ?censuses said they were from Germany.

Here is my original email to Ger-Poland-Volhynia.

I have had copies of the 2 films (FHC 1945745 and 1945746) for about 6 years.? These are birth index films.? One side of the ?film is for the right side and the other film is for the left side of the church record.? Both my grandmother and great grandmother were on the same films.? Talk about luck!? 
?
My only clue to find my grandmother and great grandmother was that I had a copy of THE PERMISSION TO GO ABROAD.? It was issued by Sudargen town officials in May 1871 and signed by the pastor of the Protestant Lutheran Church of Szaki (Sakiai) and Sudargen (Sudargas).? I was told that the church was heavily destroyed in WWII and that records probably did not survive.? Can anyone confirm this?? Where can I try and locate more records?
?
My ggrandmother Emilie Berta PYK (Pieck) was born 9 March 1850.? Parents:? Jan Ferdinand and Henrika Hu?sing.? My grandmother Joana Friedrika Halbe was born 24 July 1868:? Parents: Friedrik Gustav and Emilie Berta PYK (Pieck).
?
Gustav Halbe emigrated to the USA on the Ship Borussia and arrived New York 27 March 1868.? German passenger list stated from Konigsburg (Kreis?).? Emilie and daughter Joana emigrated to the USA? on the ship Hammonia and arrived in New York 12 Oct 1871.
Passenger list (German) stated from Lasdehnen (East Prussia).? All church, census, naturalizatrion, death certificates state from Germany.
?
I am in my 80s and just don't know how to proceed with this.? Any suggestions????

Lois?

From siegschewe at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 13 09:59:31 2013
From: siegschewe at hotmail.com (Sieg Schewe)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 10:59:31 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
Message-ID: <BLU168-W10DC3968BD16397FA54FDDD83B0@phx.gbl>

Hi Jerry: On my Google map it shows a total of 10 Starja Huta in the Ukraine. It shows no Jasinowka or Karolinowka.
So which one would be Heimthal? Where is there a cross reference or a old map?
 
Sieg Schewe
 		 	   		  

From dfoote at okstate.edu  Fri Sep 13 09:59:45 2013
From: dfoote at okstate.edu (Foote, Daniel)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:59:45 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] borscht
Message-ID: <CAM2-tYViQAw55aW=DoNjjkFQAvqb-+92iX8PLDBawK=8eUySUQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm well aware that Borscht is predominately (even originally?) beet-based.
However, I have personally never encountered of Mennonites eating
beet-based Borscht, no matter what region they came from. I am curious if
there is an explanation for this. Climate? Beets vs. cabbage?

A Mennonite cookbook I have has:
- Swiss Galician: beets, onino, parsley, salt, flour, vinegar, cream
- Swiss Volhynia: navy beans, ham/pork hock, cloves, beets, potatoes, sour
cream, onion
- Polish Michalin: soup bone, cabbage, green onions, potatoes, tomatoes,
beets, pepper, salt sour cream
- Polish Ostrog: beets, onions, bacon, flour, half-and-half/cream, salt,
vinegar
    or: stewing chicken, cabbage, potatoes, onion, tomatoes, salt-n-pepper,
cream
- Russian: soup broth/ham hock, sorrel, dill, sour cream, beet greens,
onion greens, potatoes, green pea pods
or: soup meat, salt, bay leaf, parsley, dill, pepper, onion, cabbage,
potatoes, carrots, tomatoes

I grew up with a type that has: chicken, tomato base, onions, cabbage,
potatoes, dill, bay leaf, etc


From mackzie at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 13 10:32:40 2013
From: mackzie at earthlink.net (Beth Burke)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:32:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] borscht
Message-ID: <9319275.1379093560730.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From shoning at q.com  Fri Sep 13 10:42:32 2013
From: shoning at q.com (George Shoning)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:42:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W10DC3968BD16397FA54FDDD83B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1706766366.65347.1379094152245.JavaMail.root@md05.quartz.synacor.com>

I believe that the "Heimtal" to which we are referring is just north of today's ??????-???? (also known as Pulinskaja Huta by Volhynians), about 34 kilometers directly west as the crow flies of today's ???????? (Toporitsche).

George Shoning

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sieg Schewe" <siegschewe at hotmail.com>
To: "Sggee" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:59:31 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta

Hi Jerry: On my Google map it shows a total of 10 Starja Huta in the Ukraine. It shows no Jasinowka or Karolinowka.
So which one would be Heimthal? Where is there a cross reference or a old map?
 
Sieg Schewe
 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From otto at schienke.com  Fri Sep 13 10:57:48 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 13:57:48 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing Explained
In-Reply-To: <523243F2.3090800@gmail.com>
References: <43AE5F4C-1CC0-441C-8961-BB0E505DF105@schienke.com>
	<523243F2.3090800@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FF5D7F46-CBE3-41FC-83DE-370C3D28C96B@schienke.com>


On Sep 12, 2013, at 6:45 PM, Gary Warner wrote:

> Otto,
> 
> I am told that all of the major companies (23andME, myFTDNA, and Ancestry) all use the same protocol to test the spit for the Autosomal test.   If that is the case, then the only big issue is that being in one database does not also place you in the databases of the other two.  Not sure if they all also use the same protocols for the Y-DNA and mtDNA.
> 
> Gary Warner


Good morning Gary and Listers,
I do know the 23andme uses Illumina labs for the 1,000,000 marker test. 
My code results are in 23andMe's databank on their encrypted website. 

Only I have direct access to my code (password protected).
 I can, and have, downloaded a copy of all my DNA code to to my computer and archived it for preservation for the future. 
Lotta code.
21 chromosome pairs, X chromosome, Y chromosome and the MT code.

The best part of 23andMe, and I mean best, (I personally consider the spit-test a freebie) is their encrypted website for password members. A one-time fee (test included) of $99.00 for continuing access to it and all of the tools and information. (yes. I've checked out the 'others')
For example:
Browse Raw data-My Profile (with hot-links to all of the other Public profiles)-Manage My Profile-Settings-Inbox for e-mail
Health Overview-Health Risks, Drug response, Inherited Conditions, Traits, Health Tools
Ancestry Overview-Ancestry Composition, Materna Line, Paternal Line, Neanderthal Ancestry, Ancestry Tools

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I cannot give answer to your opinions, conjectures, without sufficient evidence or proof.  Read your words, 'I am told', 'if that is the case', 'only big issue', 'not sure if' leave me with only a hypothetical surmise. Macht ja aber nichts. . .  
Without 23andMe's website as the focal point for comparison and communication, the test code is useless to me.


. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 11:51:14 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 14:51:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] difference betw Dutch and German language?
Message-ID: <8D07EC95B62B479-C60-16B9F@webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>


What pleasure this mailing list brings...thank you all...

Another question, triggered by your posts:
My Block ancestors (German Lutherans) lived in Posen area (about 100 NE of Berlin) from 1700-1892, until my great-grandparents came to USA. 

My great-grandmother Wilhelmina Meyer Block spoke Dutch, but was born in Posen, baptized in near-by Lobsens.

Any ideas on why grgrandmother spoke Dutch? If her parents were Dutch, you would still think she learned German in Posen. How different does Dutch sound from German? (Great-grandmother passed away 2 years before I was born, so I never heard anyone speak Dutch. Guess I should google a translation program and hear what it at least "sounds" like!)

Her daughter, my grandma, was taught high German in school. The German government had just made a mandate that all German children should learn to read/write/speak high German, sometime around when she was school age. She started school abt 5 in abt 1899.

When they came to America, each family member could bring one "baggage" on their ship trip; she filled her wooden box - that she made and we still have - with books rather than dresses!

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 12:16:23 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] (no subject)
Message-ID: <8D07ECCDEBE6F0B-C60-16F4D@webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>


Heimthal (Heimtal) sits between Novohrad-Volyhnski and Zhitomir - about 40 miles NW of Zhitomir, and about 50 miles NE of Novohrad-Volyhnski. Right about center of the Volynia region. (East of Luts'k, West of Kiev)

It is now Jasinowka, Ukraine. 

There is also a Jasinowka, Ukraine located NW of Luts'k. THAT town was not Heimthal in the "old days". 

Heimthal didn't have a church parish building until my grandparents left the area; they had "chapels" at people's homes. So my grandmother and her siblings were baptized in different "parishes". 

They did have a pastor. Peter Steltz until 1866 and then one of the famous Wasem brothers came!! Heinrich Wasen was asst pastor at Heimthal and then full pastor at Zhitomir until he retired in 1907. His brother Fred Wasen also served Heimthal and then became regional pastor over all of the Kiev region! Both brothers born in Russian Riga, Latvia. 

A genealogist "friend" traveled to Heimthal some years ago and sent me photos of the cemetery. Germans in the back, Russians (who lived there as overseers) in the front section. 

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 12:17:16 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:17:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] sorry, subject is - Where is Heimthal?
Message-ID: <8D07ECCFE203CDA-C60-16F77@webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>


Heimthal (Heimtal) sits between Novohrad-Volyhnski and Zhitomir - about 40 miles NW of Zhitomir, and about 50 miles NE of Novohrad-Volyhnski. Right about center of the Volynia region. (East of Luts'k, West of Kiev)
 
It is now Jasinowka, Ukraine. 
 
There is also a Jasinowka, Ukraine located NW of Luts'k. THAT town was not Heimthal in the "old days". 
 
Heimthal didn't have a church parish building until my grandparents left the area; they had "chapels" at people's homes. So my grandmother and her siblings were baptized in different "parishes". 
 
They did have a pastor. Peter Steltz until 1866 and then one of the famous Wasem brothers came!! Heinrich Wasen was asst pastor at Heimthal and then full pastor at Zhitomir until he retired in 1907. His brother Fred Wasen also served Heimthal and then became regional pastor over all of the Kiev region! Both brothers born in Russian Riga, Latvia. 
 
A genealogist "friend" traveled to Heimthal some years ago and sent me photos of the cemetery. Germans in the back, Russians (who lived there as overseers) in the front section. 
 
Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From otto at schienke.com  Fri Sep 13 12:23:08 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:23:08 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] difference betw Dutch and German language?
In-Reply-To: <8D07EC95B62B479-C60-16B9F@webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D07EC95B62B479-C60-16B9F@webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <17EF2CA6-945B-4B31-A1D4-E3FF39B9594B@schienke.com>


On Sep 13, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Charlotte Dubay wrote:

> 
> What pleasure this mailing list brings...thank you all...
> 
> Another question, triggered by your posts:
> My Block ancestors (German Lutherans) lived in Posen area (about 100 NE of Berlin) from 1700-1892, until my great-grandparents came to USA. 
> 
> My great-grandmother Wilhelmina Meyer Block spoke Dutch, but was born in Posen, baptized in near-by Lobsens.
> 
> Any ideas on why grgrandmother spoke Dutch? If her parents were Dutch, you would still think she learned German in Posen. How different does Dutch sound from German? (Great-grandmother passed away 2 years before I was born, so I never heard anyone speak Dutch. Guess I should google a translation program and hear what it at least "sounds" like!)


Block, Bloch, Blech as the spelling dances with the vowel sound. Block sounds anglicized, (ck use). . .maybe.
Grandma probably spoke a Frisian (name sounds frisian) or Lower Saxon dialect. Very similar to Dutch(Deutsch).  All are Lowland German dialects. The German of the North Sea and Baltic coast shores was Platt-Deutsch, Flatland/Lowland German.

She didn't learn German from anyone in Posen, she already spoke it. 
Since 1871 it became fashionable to speak the "Hochdeutsch"/High German of Luther's bible (in public anyway) High German has nothing to do with superiority of language, it was geographical, the speech of the hill dwellers from Luther's vicinity. I refer to it as 'hilly saxon.'

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From Krampetz at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 12:33:53 2013
From: Krampetz at aol.com (Krampetz at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:33:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Foods:  was:  dialects
Message-ID: <161b6.1bb5c0ce.3f64c2a0@aol.com>

Pierogi  are usually farmers cheese (cottage cheese) and or  mashed potato 
or plum fillings in the same dough as the Verenika recipe I found   (what 
nationality are Verenika? it wasn't mentioned)
 
I'd never seen/heard of - zweiback being soft! .. I'd only had them  hard.
Had to look them up & see that can be eaten untoasted.
 
A lookup of Porzelki  appears to be deep fried sweet bread? 
Google said no Niejakoakja, but there is "Niejako Akja"..
Which appears in numerous Polish web pages, but not as food.
 
You've already been corrected on Borscht  (Beet, not tomato) & my 
mother threw away the beet tops,  but wife cooks them into the  Borscht.
 
Bob
(enquiring minds need to know)
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 09/12/13 09:26:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
dfoote at okstate.edu writes:
........
 - Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Perogies. However, I do  know that
Borscht is tomato and chicken based ;) , Zweiback are soft, sweet  yeast
rolls (not large crackers), Verenika is plain yummy  and
Porzelki/Niejakoakja are fabulously  sinful.





From kwertmil at gmail.com  Fri Sep 13 12:45:25 2013
From: kwertmil at gmail.com (Kate Wertmiller)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 22:45:25 +0300
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
In-Reply-To: <1706766366.65347.1379094152245.JavaMail.root@md05.quartz.synacor.com>
References: <1706766366.65347.1379094152245.JavaMail.root@md05.quartz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <963902BA-016A-47F3-B3A6-F780C6DD427B@gmail.com>

Heimtal (Staraja Buda) is now Jasenivka in Chervonoarmiysk rayon (till 1935  - Pulin rajon) of Zhitomir oblast' (region). 
It subordinates to Pulino-Huta village council within Ukrainian administrative system. 
The coordinates are 
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.568056,28.189167&spn=0.03,0.03&q=50.568056,28.189167&hl=uk 

Best regards,
Kate Wertmiller


On 13 ????. 2013, at 20:42, George Shoning wrote:

> I believe that the "Heimtal" to which we are referring is just north of today's ??????-???? (also known as Pulinskaja Huta by Volhynians), about 34 kilometers directly west as the crow flies of today's ???????? (Toporitsche).
> 
> George Shoning
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sieg Schewe" <siegschewe at hotmail.com>
> To: "Sggee" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:59:31 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
> 
> Hi Jerry: On my Google map it shows a total of 10 Starja Huta in the Ukraine. It shows no Jasinowka or Karolinowka.
> So which one would be Heimthal? Where is there a cross reference or a old map?
> 
> Sieg Schewe
> 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 12:49:14 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:49:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] difference betw Dutch and German language?
In-Reply-To: <17EF2CA6-945B-4B31-A1D4-E3FF39B9594B@schienke.com>
References: <8D07EC95B62B479-C60-16B9F@webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>
	<17EF2CA6-945B-4B31-A1D4-E3FF39B9594B@schienke.com>
Message-ID: <8D07ED17582D370-C60-173A9@webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>


Thank you, Otto. 
A note to the list:
Yes, I microfiched Posen (Sokolitz) records, and indeed, the surname Block was spelled Block, Bloch, Blech, throughout time. (DOBs and given names confirmed they were same family). 

Also, I had read some history of the high German being from the high lands - 
NOTHING to do with superiority of language - 
but the Germans of the Dakotas forgot to read that paragraph! hah. 

You clarified (Low Saxton/lowland/platt deutch) definition for me. 
I hadn't thought of it being a "dialect" of German! 
That certainly would explain it - beings it doesn't look like she ever even visited Holland! hah. 

Had to google "Frisian" - a German ethnic group from Netherland area, in case someone else doesn't know.
Thank you again, Otto 
And thank you, Frank, for confirming that I had the right Heimthal!

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Otto <otto at schienke.com>
To: Charlotte Dubay <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Fri, Sep 13, 2013 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] difference betw Dutch and German language?



On Sep 13, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Charlotte Dubay wrote:

> 
> What pleasure this mailing list brings...thank you all...
> 
> Another question, triggered by your posts:
> My Block ancestors (German Lutherans) lived in Posen area (about 100 NE of 
Berlin) from 1700-1892, until my great-grandparents came to USA. 
> 
> My great-grandmother Wilhelmina Meyer Block spoke Dutch, but was born in 
Posen, baptized in near-by Lobsens.
> 
> Any ideas on why grgrandmother spoke Dutch? If her parents were Dutch, you 
would still think she learned German in Posen. How different does Dutch sound 
from German? (Great-grandmother passed away 2 years before I was born, so I 
never heard anyone speak Dutch. Guess I should google a translation program and 
hear what it at least "sounds" like!)


Block, Bloch, Blech as the spelling dances with the vowel sound. Block sounds 
anglicized, (ck use). . .maybe.
Grandma probably spoke a Frisian (name sounds frisian) or Lower Saxon dialect. 
Very similar to Dutch(Deutsch).  All are Lowland German dialects. The German of 
the North Sea and Baltic coast shores was Platt-Deutsch, Flatland/Lowland 
German.

She didn't learn German from anyone in Posen, she already spoke it. 
Since 1871 it became fashionable to speak the "Hochdeutsch"/High German of 
Luther's bible (in public anyway) High German has nothing to do with superiority 
of language, it was geographical, the speech of the hill dwellers from Luther's 
vicinity. I refer to it as 'hilly saxon.'

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."


 


From shoning at q.com  Fri Sep 13 12:59:44 2013
From: shoning at q.com (George Shoning)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:59:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Foods:  was:  dialects
In-Reply-To: <161b6.1bb5c0ce.3f64c2a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1109134513.67827.1379102384144.JavaMail.root@md05.quartz.synacor.com>


>(what nationality are Verenika? it wasn't mentioned)

A stab in the dark:  Ukrainian or Russian

Google "???????? ? ?????" - Vareniki with cheese

George Shoning


----- Original Message -----
From: Krampetz at aol.com
To: dfoote at okstate.edu, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:33:53 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Foods:  was:  dialects

Pierogi  are usually farmers cheese (cottage cheese) and or  mashed potato 
or plum fillings in the same dough as the Verenika recipe I found   (what 
nationality are Verenika? it wasn't mentioned)
 
I'd never seen/heard of - zweiback being soft! .. I'd only had them  hard.
Had to look them up & see that can be eaten untoasted.
 
A lookup of Porzelki  appears to be deep fried sweet bread? 
Google said no Niejakoakja, but there is "Niejako Akja"..
Which appears in numerous Polish web pages, but not as food.
 
You've already been corrected on Borscht  (Beet, not tomato) & my 
mother threw away the beet tops,  but wife cooks them into the  Borscht.
 
Bob
(enquiring minds need to know)
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 09/12/13 09:26:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
dfoote at okstate.edu writes:
........
 - Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Perogies. However, I do  know that
Borscht is tomato and chicken based ;) , Zweiback are soft, sweet  yeast
rolls (not large crackers), Verenika is plain yummy  and
Porzelki/Niejakoakja are fabulously  sinful.



_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From otto at schienke.com  Fri Sep 13 13:32:26 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:32:26 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] =?utf-8?b?Qm9yc2h0PyBQaWVyw7NnaSB1bmQgUMSF?=
 =?utf-8?q?czki=2E_=2E_=2E_und_Zweibak?=
Message-ID: <A4A39CE6-CD57-460C-977D-A90F28EDD55C@schienke.com>

Evening Listers,

"Everything I do, I do on the principle of Russian borscht. You can throw everything into it, beets, carrots, cabbage, onions, everything you want. What's important is the result, the taste of the borscht." Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Russian poet

"Borshch" with the 'ch' sounded like the beginning 'ch' in chess.  Undoubtedly why 't' is substituted in Yiddish. Borsht.

The ancient hogweed soup.  Slim pickins'!
In the same group as fennel, cow parsley, ground elder and giant hogweed. (*caution-not to be confused with deadly water hemlock)

Then along came Mr. Beet! 
Sugar beets were a good cash crop for eastern Europe farmers so food beets were an easy addition.
It is called in various languages: Czech: bor??, Estonian: bor?, Lithuanian: bar??iai, Polish: barszcz, Romanian: bor?, Russian and Ukrainian: ????, borshch, Yiddish: ?????, borscht. (notice the German consonant group 'sch' in borscht. -The name was earlier applied to hogweed soup, and originally to the plant hogweed.
Certainly popular in the Ukraine. As already discussed, many later variations to the making of it.  I've eaten it. . . Where's the beef?

Beth,
My taste preferences are from Russian Poland.
Ach, Himmel! es gibt Gr?tzwurst! (gritzwurst) a.k.a. grits sausage.
On the farm everything had a use and waste was not tolerated.
Made with boiled pig's head parts and other 'stuff'. . . C'mon, "parts is parts!" and barley or buckwheat (pop preferred buchweitzen) plus seasoning.

Beth, you referred to "kiszka', (keesh'ka) the Polish name for gr?tswurst.  Poles would add the pig's blood to it-dark fat kiszkas. Nyit!
Lets not forget the music of Slovenian Frankie Yankovich, a Cleveland boy who grew up in Euclid, Ohio. "Who Stole the Kiszka?" I'd attach an MP3 but not on the ListServ.

The American term for the uncased gritzw?rst is 'scrapple'.
Slavic?Polish kiszka, Russian ????? ( k??ka ), or Ukrainian ????? ( k??ka ). Ultimately from Proto-Slavic *ky?a, *ky??ka ( ?intestine, stomach? ). Related to Sanskrit ????? ( ko??ha, ?intestine? ) and possibly Ancient Greek ?????? ( kustis, ?bladder? ) .
*(Lets not forget the Scot's "Haggis.") Washing it down with the water of life!
Gr?tzwurst (Germany and sometimes Silesia)
Knipp (Lower Saxony, Germany)
Krupniok (More of a slight name difference than variation, Silesia)
Pinkel (Northwest Germany)
Stippgr?tze (Westphalia, Germany)
Westf?lische Rinderwurst (Westphalia, Germany)
Maischel (Carinthia, Austria): Gr?tzwurst without blood and not cased in intestine, but worked into balls in caul fat. The name comes from the Slovenian maj?elj in turn derived from the Bavarian Maisen ("slices").[1] Another etymology points out to the Hungarian m?jas.
Jelito (Czech Republic)

My friend, Michael Derke, his forefathers from the Lipno Parish vicinity in present day Poland, sent me a site that I now pass on to you. 
Its theme is, "Dumplings Taste better When Filled With Memories."  
How true. Everything tastes better filled with memories!  They certainly are being served today.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/08/30/216899819/dumplings-taste-better-when-filled-with-memories

Pier?gi/Pier?g
Pierogen:
Pierogi were a favorite of ours. On the farm we always had ample cottage cheese which, when sweetened, made a grand stuffing. My Mom would deep-fry them. Swallowing a half dozen was a good start.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierogi
We Clevelanders have a leg up on pier?gi.   http://piepal.com/

And Punchki. P?czki  By all means Punchki!
You probably remember 'punchki', 'p?czki', dough lumps with raisins, deep-fried and powdered-sugar sprinkled. In Berlin they are called Berliner ballen.  a.k.a. 'jelly donuts.'  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P?czki   Perfect for a reversed diet!

Zweiback 
Ostpreussen lebt noch!   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweibak
(remember, we are looking at plattdeutsch)
-Zweibak needs little interpretation. A well-known German compound word, Zwei/Two and Bak/Bake, a name of a double-baked biscuit. Italian 'Biscotti' are similar, so are sea biscuits, the mainstay of sailing ships. They were double-baked to remove the moisture and increase their shelf-life.

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From DANWWAGNER at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 15:39:33 2013
From: DANWWAGNER at aol.com (DANWWAGNER at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:39:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects
Message-ID: <fce78.5508e1fc.3f64ee25@aol.com>

 
Thanks for the replies to my posting.  I'm hoping the  "ish" in my family's 
dialect can point me toward a geographical region where  they MAY have 
originated, or lived before emigrating to the USA.  The  latest reply says "ish 
reveals influence from southern and central High  German dialects."  Does 
that suggest a particular area of Prussia,  Poland, or Germany?  Also, how 
durable do you think this dialect is.   In other words, would it stick with a 
family for generations, or would they  conform to the German spoken by 
friends and neighbors?  I suspect that  my family--all Lutherans--lived near 
Elsenau, east of Berlin and southwest of  Gdansk, before families began 
emigrating to Volhynia around 1785.   They lived 3 or 4 generations in or near 
Retowka, Roschischtsche, or  Vincentinowka, before moving back to the 
Elsenau/Loosen area around  1895-1910.  Many or all of them were fluent in both German 
and  Polish.  Thereafter, my grandfather and my father lived in north  
Chicago.  Thanks for the help!  Dan Wagner  

 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/13/2013 12:26:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
dfoote at okstate.edu writes:

My 2  cents:
- As hinted at by another, 'Prussian' was originally a Baltic ethnic  group
and Baltic language. The ethnic group was largely assimilated by the  12-13
century 'crusades' of the Tuetonic Knights. The Prussian language  is
documented (vocabulary lists, catechism) up to the 16th century. In  the
modern era, there are a 'Low Prussian' and a 'High Prussian' (See  Wikipedia
for outlines)

- 'Ish' reveals influence from southern and  central High German dialects.
The other end of the spectrum, Low German (as  well as Dutch, Frisian) is
'Ik'. Central High German is in the middle,  '/ix/' (IPA, like Scottish
'loch')

- In the small town of Corn,  Oklahoma and its surroundings, there was a
significant population of  Germans from Russia or Poland. The majority were
Low German speaking  Mennonites from Russia/Ukraine/Volhynia/Crimea. Others
were from Russian  Poland who mostly had reverted to High German by the
1850s. (The Mennonites  along the Vistula had come from Dutch/Low German
areas, spoke Dutch in  church until 1750s, while quickly adapting to the
Vistula Low German)   We have my great-aunt and my grandfather (who had a
father born near  Warsaw) on video recalling a joke. The Low  Germans
(Plattdeutsch/Plautdietsch) spoke a German that was  'platt  und verdreht':
flat and twisted. They recalled this in the presence of my  grandfather's
wife, who was from a Low German family. She chuckled. This is  one of the
few vivid memories I have of them, since they all pased in the  mid- 1990s
when I was in my teens. (Yes, I'm one of the youngsters of the  list)

- Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Perogies. However, I do  know that
Borscht is tomato and chicken based ;) , Zweiback are soft, sweet  yeast
rolls (not large crackers), Verenika is plain yummy  and
Porzelki/Niejakoakja are fabulously  sinful.
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From zelmer at telusplanet.net  Fri Sep 13 15:26:41 2013
From: zelmer at telusplanet.net (Maureen Zelmer)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:26:41 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Mailing list
Message-ID: <8CC02D86-FC10-4DA2-B2AF-0D9076F70D25@telusplanet.net>

My name is Maureen Zelmer and I wish to be removed from the mailing list please.
Thank you
Sent from Maureen's iPad

From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 16:10:08 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:10:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] ancestors from Volhynia and Prussia
Message-ID: <8D07EED86530E2C-FF4-1848F@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com>


Hello list,
I mixed my "oranges and apples" and hopefully did not confuse the listers too much...

especially Linda, who is searching for Bloch ancestors.

My oranges:
H?ser/Weichmann/Bondermann ancestors are from VOLHYNIA.
(Albeit the H? ser brothers traveled from Bromberg in the 1862-3 movement.)

My apples:
Block/Meyer ancestors are from PRUSSIA - near Bromberg and Posen. 
(They emigrated from that area directly to SOUTH DAKOTA
never seeing Volhynia.)

I just had a question about their Dutch/German language, which listers
so graciously answered. (Otto especially explained it to me.) 

My Oranges and Apples did not know each other in Europe!! 

Of course, in the Dakotahs, they became part of my fruit salad! 
Guess I could call it my fruity salad! :)

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Fri Sep 13 17:00:11 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:00:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
In-Reply-To: <963902BA-016A-47F3-B3A6-F780C6DD427B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <549771459.19143670.1379116811179.JavaMail.root@cds026>

As for the original question, if you search for it on Google Maps with this spelling Yasenivka you will find it in Zhytomyrs'ka Oblast.  That is the current name.

This map http://www.mapywig.org/m/WIG_maps/series/100K_300dpi/P46_S46_BARASZE_300dpi.jpg shows it as Stara-Buda.  The Buda suffix is correct but it is sometimes misspelled as Huta in extractions of records.  

I have other paper maps that show other names as well.  I don't know if any of them are on line.  The Stummp map would also certainly show it.


Jerry





----- Original Message -----
From: "Kate Wertmiller" <kwertmil at gmail.com>
To: "George Shoning" <shoning at q.com>
Cc: "Sieg Schewe" <siegschewe at hotmail.com>, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:45:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta

Heimtal (Staraja Buda) is now Jasenivka in Chervonoarmiysk rayon (till 1935  - Pulin rajon) of Zhitomir oblast' (region). 
It subordinates to Pulino-Huta village council within Ukrainian administrative system. 
The coordinates are 
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.568056,28.189167&spn=0.03,0.03&q=50.568056,28.189167&hl=uk 

Best regards,
Kate Wertmiller


On 13 ????. 2013, at 20:42, George Shoning wrote:

> I believe that the "Heimtal" to which we are referring is just north of today's ??????-???? (also known as Pulinskaja Huta by Volhynians), about 34 kilometers directly west as the crow flies of today's ???????? (Toporitsche).
> 
> George Shoning
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sieg Schewe" <siegschewe at hotmail.com>
> To: "Sggee" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:59:31 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
> 
> Hi Jerry: On my Google map it shows a total of 10 Starja Huta in the Ukraine. It shows no Jasinowka or Karolinowka.
> So which one would be Heimthal? Where is there a cross reference or a old map?
> 
> Sieg Schewe
> 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

_______________________________________________
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Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 17:08:57 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 20:08:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] What is Heimthal called today?
Message-ID: <8D07EF5BDD9F53D-FF4-1894E@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com>


Message: 5
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 22:45:25 +0300
From: Kate Wertmiller <kwertmil at gmail.com>
To: George Shoning <shoning at q.com>
Cc: Sieg Schewe <siegschewe at hotmail.com>,
	ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
Message-ID: <963902BA-016A-47F3-B3A6-F780C6DD427B at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-u

Heimtal (Staraja Buda) is now Jasenivka in Chervonoarmiysk rayon (till 1935  - 
Pulin rajon) of Zhitomir oblast' (region). 
It subordinates to Pulino-Huta village council within Ukrainian administrative 
system. 
The coordinates are 
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.568056,28.189167&spn=0.03,0.03&q=50.568056,28.189167&hl=uk 
Best regards,
Kate Wertmiller

On 13 ????. 2013, at 20:42, George Shoning wrote:
> I believe that the "Heimtal" to which we are referring is just north of 
today's ??????-???? (also known as Pulinskaja Huta by Volhynians), about 34 
kilometers directly west as the crow flies of today's ???????? (Toporitsche).
> George Shoning
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sieg Schewe" <siegschewe at hotmail.com>
> To: "Sggee" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:59:31 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
> 
> Hi Jerry: On my Google map it shows a total of 10 Starja Huta in the Ukraine. 
It shows no Jasinowka or Karolinowka.
> So which one would be Heimthal? Where is there a cross reference or a old map?
> Sieg Schewe

Well, it seems that searching is muddying the waters...Yes, it seems very confusing, but the "search" is what makes genealogy so fun!...I previously looked at the map that Jerry pointed out, and Kate, it does seem that the town Jasenivka is where Heimthal once was! Does anyone have an old map with the name Heimthal on it - to find the coordinates used then? Then match those coordinates to today's map and see what is there?? 
Would that help? 

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 18:29:19 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:29:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Heimthal location correct/modern name
	incorrect
Message-ID: <8D07F00F80C4111-1AD8-198B0@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com>


Thanks, Kate. I saw on the map that indeed those coordinates were labeled Jasenifka, not Jasinowka. 

I have called modern-day Heimthal "Jasinowka" for more than 10 years, and wrote that data in books to families. (last one sent out just a week ago to 15 members!)

Then, just this past week, saw there were two Jasinowkas- and that started this whole quest. 

Now, I do believe that my books ARE incorrect. And the modern day name for Heimthal actually does indeed look like it is Jasenifka! The Rose is NOT the same by any name! 

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Fri Sep 13 18:37:57 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:37:57 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Heimthal location correct/modern
	name	incorrect
In-Reply-To: <8D07F00F80C4111-1AD8-198B0@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <657146802.19174180.1379122677782.JavaMail.root@cds026>

These variant spellings can all be considered correct.  The Ukrainian language softens some of the vowels and so Rowno becomes Rivne, Jasinowka becomes Jasinivka / Yasinivka, etc.  It will vary from one map to another depending on time frame and who is creating the map.


Jerry





----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:29:19 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Heimthal location correct/modern name	incorrect


Thanks, Kate. I saw on the map that indeed those coordinates were labeled Jasenifka, not Jasinowka. 

I have called modern-day Heimthal "Jasinowka" for more than 10 years, and wrote that data in books to families. (last one sent out just a week ago to 15 members!)

Then, just this past week, saw there were two Jasinowkas- and that started this whole quest. 

Now, I do believe that my books ARE incorrect. And the modern day name for Heimthal actually does indeed look like it is Jasenifka! The Rose is NOT the same by any name! 

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From Krampetz at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 19:56:29 2013
From: Krampetz at aol.com (Krampetz at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 22:56:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
Message-ID: <1cce4.1d198e8b.3f652a5c@aol.com>

There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
    Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
    Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.  
           -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)
     
 
 
In a message dated 09/12/13 09:40:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
hoeserhistory at aol.com writes:


My  four German grandparents all settled in the Dakotahs.

Two of my  grandparents' families were from Prussia, one from Russia, and 
one from  Switzerland. As late as the 1940s, I remember both Prussian 
families telling  their girls that they could NOT date those Russian boys! The 
"German" families  did not want to mingle with the "Russian" families. Not at 
barn dances, not at  church. 

The German Swiss family? They didn't want their children to  date either 
Russians OR Norwegians!! One of their sons loved a Norwegian, and  the Swiss 
parents would NOT let them marry. They ultimately did, but had to  separate 
at the court house. 

When my German Swiss grandfather wanted  to marry my German Russian 
grandmother, the parents again tried to intervene.  This time it didn't work. The 
couple left SD to farm in ND, where they lived  happily ever after until 
death.

And then my mother did it. She married  a German from Russia, which was 
generally frowned upon in ND even in the  1930s. She often times insulted him 
for his background, but pretty much lived  happily ever after.

Me? I married a half German, some French, rest  Scotch/English/Irish with 
maybe even a little Am. Indian in there -  60  years ago, so guess we lived 
"happily ever after". :) Our children skipped  school on "Family Tree" days!

Charlotte  
hoeserhistory at aol.com

These stats may not be interesting to all,  but I found them quite 
interesting myself: 
I recently read that ND and SD  had more Germans settlers than any other 
states with MN not too far behind.  Today, South Dakota is 40% German, and 
southern central part of North Dakota  was known as "the German-Russian 
triangle". North Dakota registered the  highest number percentage of German 
immigrants in 1910 for the mid states at  18  percent.
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Fri Sep 13 21:46:11 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 00:46:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
Message-ID: <8D07F1C7887A5A8-ED0-1A64F@webmail-d130.sysops.aol.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: Krampetz <Krampetz at aol.com>
To: hoeserhistory <hoeserhistory at aol.com>; ger-poland-volhynia <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Fri, Sep 13, 2013 9:56 pm
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians




There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
    Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
    Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.   
           -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)
 

Yes, some of my relatives said that they were born in Poland (Luts'k) where there was not actual Poland all the years that my ancestors were there. They still considered themselves German Lutherans, spoke only German. (until Russia demanded that they learn Russian in school, around 1940s.) They soon left (after communists shot the husband) - walking 4 months to the west. 

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com





From HorstRenz at AOL.com  Sat Sep 14 06:01:34 2013
From: HorstRenz at AOL.com (Horst Renz)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 09:01:34 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] 23 & me
Message-ID: <2B94CA78-464A-4243-A1D5-2085CC337D0D@AOL.com>

Hello All,
The state of New York does not allow the sending of samples to 23 &Me.  I would need to send the sample from another state to comply with the law here.   I don't know how many other states have similar laws.
Horst Renz

From LINDASUSAK at comcast.net  Sat Sep 14 07:15:08 2013
From: LINDASUSAK at comcast.net (LINDASUSAK at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:15:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
In-Reply-To: <1cce4.1d198e8b.3f652a5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <429588212.1273712.1379168108898.JavaMail.root@sz0079a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran. The 
people married each other or people from other German villages. It was a great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic. One sibling of my grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again. He was totally ostracized from the community. 

----- Original Message -----
From: Krampetz at aol.com 
To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org 
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM 
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians 

There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too.. 
Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and 
Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home. 
-because they were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?) 



In a message dated 09/12/13 09:40:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
hoeserhistory at aol.com writes: 


My four German grandparents all settled in the Dakotahs. 

Two of my grandparents' families were from Prussia, one from Russia, and 
one from Switzerland. As late as the 1940s, I remember both Prussian 
families telling their girls that they could NOT date those Russian boys! The 
"German" families did not want to mingle with the "Russian" families. Not at 
barn dances, not at church. 

The German Swiss family? They didn't want their children to date either 
Russians OR Norwegians!! One of their sons loved a Norwegian, and the Swiss 
parents would NOT let them marry. They ultimately did, but had to separate 
at the court house. 

When my German Swiss grandfather wanted to marry my German Russian 
grandmother, the parents again tried to intervene. This time it didn't work. The 
couple left SD to farm in ND, where they lived happily ever after until 
death. 

And then my mother did it. She married a German from Russia, which was 
generally frowned upon in ND even in the 1930s. She often times insulted him 
for his background, but pretty much lived happily ever after. 

Me? I married a half German, some French, rest Scotch/English/Irish with 
maybe even a little Am. Indian in there - 60 years ago, so guess we lived 
"happily ever after". :) Our children skipped school on "Family Tree" days! 

Charlotte 
hoeserhistory at aol.com 

These stats may not be interesting to all, but I found them quite 
interesting myself: 
I recently read that ND and SD had more Germans settlers than any other 
states with MN not too far behind. Today, South Dakota is 40% German, and 
southern central part of North Dakota was known as "the German-Russian 
triangle". North Dakota registered the highest number percentage of German 
immigrants in 1910 for the mid states at 18 percent. 
_______________________________________________ 
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list 
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org 
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 

_______________________________________________ 
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list 
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org 
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 


From siegschewe at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 14 08:23:34 2013
From: siegschewe at hotmail.com (Sieg Schewe)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 09:23:34 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Starja Buta
Message-ID: <BLU168-W1135D82C50AAC0AE1F378E7D8240@phx.gbl>

Thanks to Jerry, Kate, George and everyone for the great discussion on Starja Buta-Heimtal.
It cleared up the confusion of the location for me.
 
Sieg Schewe 		 	   		  

From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sat Sep 14 08:45:57 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 11:45:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID: <8D07F78A33D9993-2708-1B8E2@webmail-d237.sysops.aol.com>



Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013: 

In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran.  The people married each other or people from other German villages.  It was a great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again.  He was totally ostracized from the community.


From: Krampetz at aol.com
To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians

There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
    Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
    Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.  
           -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)

Char writes:
Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I married a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to do on both sides - and this was in early 50s!) 

But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different - out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church! 

The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.

I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting.  I know that Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were there (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and they were generally owners of larger estates. 

I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the family years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had a Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - for love and marriage to happen...

New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)

My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if you did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer than the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more peasant rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 14 09:51:48 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 10:51:48 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
In-Reply-To: <8D07F78A33D9993-2708-1B8E2@webmail-d237.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <335597517.19377179.1379177508477.JavaMail.root@cds026>

I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic churches in Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us know.  Most certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they wanted a church connection but because they were mandated to do so by the government as long as there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the registration.  Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.  Mennonites registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they were not officially recognized as a church.

In Volhynia, government regulations were more lax, at least until the 1890s.  Although parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus (literally prayer house) was a common entity.  Registration was done through the local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or groups of communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area, he would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The Kantor did not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and accuracy of the records he had received from a Kantor.

If some records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is not generally because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that the Kantor missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a particular period of time is missing, etc. 

German Catholics in Volhynia were quite rare.  Those there were often in the cities, occupied in some special trade rather than in farming.   

Jews in Volhynia were not large estate owners.  They were not permitted to own land in the 19th century.  They were numerous in number, being part of the Pale of Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. tradesmen but for those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".

Rumors of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia but I have never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't forget that Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in the late 1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you, consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that suggests that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that they married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or ethnicity.  Such events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th century or earlier.

And finally two comments from the other part of the thread.  The Vistula Germans tag is commonly applied to those Germans who lived along the Wisla River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.  As of 1815, this territory became part of Russian Poland so after that year there would be no migration of Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They were already part of it.

And regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not the case.  They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often adapting some local customs and food items along the way).  But they became Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time.  For example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now became Polish.


Jerry




----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:45:57 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans



Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013: 

In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran.  The people married each other or people from other German villages.  It was a great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again.  He was totally ostracized from the community.


From: Krampetz at aol.com
To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians

There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
    Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
    Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.  
           -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)

Char writes:
Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I married a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to do on both sides - and this was in early 50s!) 

But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different - out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church! 

The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.

I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting.  I know that Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were there (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and they were generally owners of larger estates. 

I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the family years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had a Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - for love and marriage to happen...

New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)

My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if you did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer than the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more peasant rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From siegschewe at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 14 11:16:34 2013
From: siegschewe at hotmail.com (Sieg Schewe)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 12:16:34 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Heimthal Church
Message-ID: <BLU168-W1223A0A25F84628BDE5D9A6D8240@phx.gbl>

Hello: If anyone is interested after all this I found Heimthal on the (Map of Volhynia Area) by accident.Jerry sent me the map some time ago.
Heimthal is just north of Pulin. This verifies our discussion on this subject. Also I have a picture of the Heimthal church and parsonage.
 If any one wants a copy of these Items contact me directly.
 
Sieg Schewe 		 	   		  

From lradke at procognis.com  Sat Sep 14 11:46:33 2013
From: lradke at procognis.com (Lynda Radke)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 11:46:33 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing Explained
In-Reply-To: <FF5D7F46-CBE3-41FC-83DE-370C3D28C96B@schienke.com>
References: <43AE5F4C-1CC0-441C-8961-BB0E505DF105@schienke.com>
	<523243F2.3090800@gmail.com>
	<FF5D7F46-CBE3-41FC-83DE-370C3D28C96B@schienke.com>
Message-ID: <009901ceb17a$bee7c5b0$3cb75110$@com>

Good Morning,

I have been following the discussion on DNA and thought I would add some
background in case it is of use to those who might be considering testing.

All humans are 99.8% the same, however the 0.2% that we differ can have a
large impact on who we are.  Differences in dna are made up of insertions
(extra pieces of dna that others don't have), deletions and SNPs (pronounced
snips).  For the most part significant insertions and deletions are not
consistent with life and result in miscarriage, a stillborn child, or severe
birth defects (like down syndrome).  For most of us, the 0.2% that we differ
is made up of snips - minor variation in our dna.

When the human genome was mapped in 2003, it gave us a baseline to compare
to.  Scientist were then able to determine locations in the genome where
humans were known to vary. It is estimate that the average human varies from
the baseline in ~3 million locations.  Of these locations, ~2 million are
well known to scientist because variation has been seen in many people, the
remaining ~1 million are more recent and may only be seen in certain
families or ethnic groups.  Testing the full genome is still expensive
(around $5,000 usd), but companies like 23andme, have created an inexpensive
($99 usd) test that looks at 1 million of the well known locations.  This is
called an Autosomal test and is also now offered by ftdna and ancestry.com.


In any of these snip locations, you may have the ancestral version or the
newer, derived version.  You inherit one copy from each parent, so you can
have two ancestral copies, two derived copies or one of each.  One of the
most well known snips is for eye color.  Around 5,000 years ago, the snip
for blue eyes developed and quickly spread throughout European population.
If you have blue or light green eyes, you likely have two of the derived
copies.  If you have brown eyes, you likely have either one or two copies of
the ancestral version.  

These snips have a location on one of your chromosomes.  If you share 700 or
more of these snips in a row with another member in the database,
statistically you must have both inherited that section of your dna from a
common ancestor.  The longer the segments and the more segments that you
share with someone the closer the relationship.  In general, a child shares
50% with their parents and siblings, 25% with their grandparents, aunts,
uncles, 12.5% with first cousins, 3% - 6% with second cousins, 1% - 3% with
third and fourth cousins, and less than 1% with 5th cousins and beyond.  

For my Father-in-law, who is Volhynian German on both sides, he has 1,000+
matches.  Of them, about 50 are either larger or multiple segments, and it
is these that I focus my genealogy efforts on.  His highest match (outside
of our known family), is another German from Volhynia with whom he shares
1.58% and 6 segments, who is predicted to be his third cousin. As they
shared a family name, it was fairly easy to determine where the common
ancestry was. Otto, his son, and cousin also show up as matches at the
predicted 4th cousin level, but we have yet to discover the exact nature of
the common ancestry.

Which service you use is a matter of personal preference.  23andme has the
largest database, but many of the participants tested for health reasons and
are not interested in genealogy.  FTDNA and Ancestry are newer and have
smaller databases, although if you match someone there they are more likely
to be interested and have a family tree to share with you.  A free service
called gedmatch, allows you to upload results and compare them to others,
including those who have tested using another service.

I am a huge fan of dna testing, having tested a large portion of my family,
including my infant son and my 90 year old late father.  I use the results
for both health and ancestry.  For those who have elderly family members, I
would encourage you to have them tested while they are still with us.  The
technology is evolving rapidly and as more people test, it will become
easier to find ancestors from the results.

Best wishes,

Lynda Radke 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] On
Behalf Of Otto
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:58 AM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing Explained


On Sep 12, 2013, at 6:45 PM, Gary Warner wrote:

> Otto,
> 
> I am told that all of the major companies (23andME, myFTDNA, and Ancestry)
all use the same protocol to test the spit for the Autosomal test.   If that
is the case, then the only big issue is that being in one database does not
also place you in the databases of the other two.  Not sure if they all also
use the same protocols for the Y-DNA and mtDNA.
> 
> Gary Warner


Good morning Gary and Listers,
I do know the 23andme uses Illumina labs for the 1,000,000 marker test. 
My code results are in 23andMe's databank on their encrypted website. 

Only I have direct access to my code (password protected).
 I can, and have, downloaded a copy of all my DNA code to to my computer and
archived it for preservation for the future. 
Lotta code.
21 chromosome pairs, X chromosome, Y chromosome and the MT code.

The best part of 23andMe, and I mean best, (I personally consider the
spit-test a freebie) is their encrypted website for password members. A
one-time fee (test included) of $99.00 for continuing access to it and all
of the tools and information. (yes. I've checked out the 'others') For
example:
Browse Raw data-My Profile (with hot-links to all of the other Public
profiles)-Manage My Profile-Settings-Inbox for e-mail Health Overview-Health
Risks, Drug response, Inherited Conditions, Traits, Health Tools Ancestry
Overview-Ancestry Composition, Materna Line, Paternal Line, Neanderthal
Ancestry, Ancestry Tools

Family Tree
DNA Relatives
Gene Comparison
Family Traits

Research and Community:
Surveys
Quick Questions
Discoveries
Initiatives

Help:
Community
FAQs
Genetics 101
Blog

I cannot give answer to your opinions, conjectures, without sufficient
evidence or proof.  Read your words, 'I am told', 'if that is the case',
'only big issue', 'not sure if' leave me with only a hypothetical surmise.
Macht ja aber nichts. . .  
Without 23andMe's website as the focal point for comparison and
communication, the test code is useless to me.


. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From kbrowne01518 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 14 11:52:43 2013
From: kbrowne01518 at gmail.com (Kenneth Browne)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:52:43 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
In-Reply-To: <335597517.19377179.1379177508477.JavaMail.root@cds026>
References: <335597517.19377179.1379177508477.JavaMail.root@cds026>
Message-ID: <5234B07B.6020008@gmail.com>

On 09/14/2013 12:51 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>   Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.
My ggfather, Samuel Lachmann, was born in Sept, 1865 in Rozhysche 
(sp?) and migrated to the U.S. (Chicago) in 1891. His first wife, my 
ggmother, Alvine Mroch died young and her origins are still a mystery, 
other than 1900 census which state
place of birth as "Germany". Samuels place of birth is listed as 
"Russia."

In re: the above citation, is it possible that Samuel's birth in 1865 
(or 1866) could have been recorded in a Lutheran church, even if he or 
his parents were Jewish? Seems unlikely except for the existence of 
letters written by his "sister in law" in 1931 and 1937. The first 
letter in Yiddish, the second in English with help of a friend 
states...'back to Poland we cannot go because we have no passport.'

I also have a digital copy of Samuel's parents' marriage in 1852. I 
cannot read the Polish, but I can pick out some of the names and it 
appears to mention a Samuel Lachmann. Other keywords that I picked out 
of the document (a .TIF file) are Kielce, Antonielow, Gottfried 
Lachmann, Juliana Josefa Wolf, and at the bottom what looks like 
Pastor Kielecki.

As far as I know, Gottfried Lachmann's father was a Karl Lachmann. So 
if I've deciphered these names correctly, who is this other Samuel 
Lachmann who existed some 13 years before my ggf's birth? Ah, the 
mystery of genealogy.

-- 
Kenneth Browne researching: BROWN(E) LEIGHTON TAYLOR CLOUGH/CLUFF 
LACHMANN RUSSELL NOURSE MORSE PETTENGILL NOBLE SMALL WOLF MROCH 
LUEDTKE HECKBERT MANTEI


From lindakbowen at cox.net  Sat Sep 14 12:33:43 2013
From: lindakbowen at cox.net (Linda Bowen)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:33:43 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
In-Reply-To: <R4s51m01D1d9uJK014s7tF>
References: <R4s51m01D1d9uJK014s7tF>
Message-ID: <5234BA17.1060605@cox.net>

I  have  ordered a  Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great 
grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find 
information on his family in these records.
The film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
I became involved in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz 
sounded  like a very Jewish name to me.

My great grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a 
settler.
My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic 
girl.   I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a nice" 
German girl" with Volhynian roots.

I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data 
to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
My younger brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
My autosomal DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that 
included only 7% central Europe.
It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11% Volga-ural.

One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA  told me that some 
of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in 
Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA indicate they may be 
Askenazi Jews.

Message for Lynda Radke.
One of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from 
Wladymir Wolynsk area.
Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
There is a Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
married Olga Hammerling.
Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention 
these names in case something fits.



On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic churches in Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us know.  Most certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they wanted a church connection but because they were mandated to do so by the government as long as there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the registration.  Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.  Mennonites registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they were not officially recognized as a church.
>
> In Volhynia, government regulations were more lax, at least until the 1890s.  Although parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus (literally prayer house) was a common entity.  Registration was done through the local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or groups of communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area, he would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The Kantor did not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and accuracy of the records he had received from a Kantor.
> If some records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is not generally because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that the Kantor missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a particular period of time is missing, etc.
>
> German Catholics in Volhynia were quite rare.  Those there were often in the cities, occupied in some special trade rather than in farming.
>
> Jews in Volhynia were not large estate owners.  They were not permitted to own land in the 19th century.  They were numerous in number, being part of the Pale of Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. tradesmen but for those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>
> Rumors of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia but I have never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't forget that Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in the late 1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you, consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that suggests that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that they married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or ethnicity.  Such events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th century or earlier.
>
> And finally two comments from the other part of the thread.  The Vistula Germans tag is commonly applied to those Germans who lived along the Wisla River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.  As of 1815, this territory became part of Russian Poland so after that year there would be no migration of Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They were already part of it.
>
> And regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not the case.  They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often adapting some local customs and food items along the way).  But they became Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time.  For example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now became Polish.
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:45:57 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>
>
>
> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013:
>
> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran.  The people married each other or people from other German villages.  It was a great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again.  He was totally ostracized from the community.
>
>
> From: Krampetz at aol.com
> To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
>
> There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
>      Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
>      Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.
>             -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)
>
> Char writes:
> Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I married a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to do on both sides - and this was in early 50s!)
>
> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different - out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church!
>
> The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.
>
> I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting.  I know that Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were there (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and they were generally owners of larger estates.
>
> I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the family years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had a Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - for love and marriage to happen...
>
> New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)
>
> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if you did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer than the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more peasant rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.
>
>
> Charlotte DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>



From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 14 13:29:32 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:29:32 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
In-Reply-To: <5234BA17.1060605@cox.net>
Message-ID: <134130857.19443869.1379190572099.JavaMail.root@cds026>

The records will confirm any theories you have though I don't know if a mixed marriage would ever be recorded at a Jewish synagogue.  An important thing to remember is that recording at authorized churches or synagogues pre WW I was mandated in Russian Poland.  That same mandate did not exist in Volhynia.  

The sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any other of the other often thought of indicators do not imply Jewish heritage.  I have seen all kinds of reasons given for a supposed Jewish heritage.  A lot of people insist I must be Jewish because of my surname but it simply isn't true.  Now a letter written in Yiddish by a family member as reported by Kenneth Browne in a previous message, that may be a different matter.  Here you have some kind of physical evidence.  For a typical German, Yiddish might be used to communicate at a market town but not in a letter.  I would not rely on a close dna match telling you about Jewish connections.  She may be just as misinformed as many others are.  I don't want to discourage your research.  I just don't want others jumping on the same bandwagon based on vague notions.

As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with east European connections shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots.  It however proves nothing in terms of Jewishness.  If it were possible to check the dna of an ancestor from 1000 years ago, you might find that the percentage has not changed much because other factors have changed a lot.  

I am not anti-Jewish.  I just find that some people (not necessarily you) have an unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in some way and good research time gets wasted in going in that direction.

Jerry Frank



----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:33:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans

I  have  ordered a  Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great 
grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find 
information on his family in these records.
The film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
I became involved in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz 
sounded  like a very Jewish name to me.

My great grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a 
settler.
My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic 
girl.   I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a nice" 
German girl" with Volhynian roots.

I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data 
to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
My younger brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
My autosomal DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that 
included only 7% central Europe.
It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11% Volga-ural.

One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA  told me that some 
of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in 
Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA indicate they may be 
Askenazi Jews.

Message for Lynda Radke.
One of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from 
Wladymir Wolynsk area.
Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
There is a Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
married Olga Hammerling.
Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention 
these names in case something fits.



On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic churches in Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us know.  Most certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they wanted a church connection but because they were mandated to do so by the government as long as there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the registration.  Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.  Mennonites registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they were not officially recognized as a church.
>
> In Volhynia, government regulations were more lax, at least until the 1890s.  Although parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus (literally prayer house) was a common entity.  Registration was done through the local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or groups of communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area, he would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The Kantor did not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and accuracy of the records he had received from a Kantor.
> If some records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is not generally because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that the Kantor missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a particular period of time is missing, etc.
>
> German Catholics in Volhynia were quite rare.  Those there were often in the cities, occupied in some special trade rather than in farming.
>
> Jews in Volhynia were not large estate owners.  They were not permitted to own land in the 19th century.  They were numerous in number, being part of the Pale of Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. tradesmen but for those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>
> Rumors of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia but I have never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't forget that Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in the late 1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you, consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that suggests that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that they married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or ethnicity.  Such events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th century or earlier.
>
> And finally two comments from the other part of the thread.  The Vistula Germans tag is commonly applied to those Germans who lived along the Wisla River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.  As of 1815, this territory became part of Russian Poland so after that year there would be no migration of Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They were already part of it.
>
> And regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not the case.  They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often adapting some local customs and food items along the way).  But they became Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time.  For example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now became Polish.
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:45:57 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>
>
>
> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013:
>
> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran.  The people married each other or people from other German villages.  It was a great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again.  He was totally ostracized from the community.
>
>
> From: Krampetz at aol.com
> To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
>
> There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
>      Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
>      Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.
>             -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)
>
> Char writes:
> Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I married a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to do on both sides - and this was in early 50s!)
>
> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different - out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church!
>
> The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.
>
> I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting.  I know that Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were there (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and they were generally owners of larger estates.
>
> I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the family years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had a Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - for love and marriage to happen...
>
> New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)
>
> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if you did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer than the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more peasant rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.
>
>
> Charlotte DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>

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From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 14 13:37:28 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:37:28 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
In-Reply-To: <5234B07B.6020008@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1367661206.19445937.1379191048112.JavaMail.root@cds026>

The letter written in Yiddish seems to imply a strong Jewish connection.  Many Germans would have some knowledge of Yiddish because of the need to communicate in the marketplace.  They would not normally use it to write a letter.  Are you certain it was Yiddish or could it have been low German?  There are some similarities.

I am a little confused about your question regarding Samuel.  I only see an 1865/6 birth described, not one 13 years earlier.  If Samuel's birth is recorded in the Lutheran Church in 1865 and his parent's marriage in the Lutheran Church in 1852, where does the Jewish connection enter in?  The marriage record by the way would indicate if either spouse was anything other than Lutheran.


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Browne" <kbrowne01518 at gmail.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 12:52:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans

On 09/14/2013 12:51 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>   Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.
My ggfather, Samuel Lachmann, was born in Sept, 1865 in Rozhysche 
(sp?) and migrated to the U.S. (Chicago) in 1891. His first wife, my 
ggmother, Alvine Mroch died young and her origins are still a mystery, 
other than 1900 census which state
place of birth as "Germany". Samuels place of birth is listed as 
"Russia."

In re: the above citation, is it possible that Samuel's birth in 1865 
(or 1866) could have been recorded in a Lutheran church, even if he or 
his parents were Jewish? Seems unlikely except for the existence of 
letters written by his "sister in law" in 1931 and 1937. The first 
letter in Yiddish, the second in English with help of a friend 
states...'back to Poland we cannot go because we have no passport.'

I also have a digital copy of Samuel's parents' marriage in 1852. I 
cannot read the Polish, but I can pick out some of the names and it 
appears to mention a Samuel Lachmann. Other keywords that I picked out 
of the document (a .TIF file) are Kielce, Antonielow, Gottfried 
Lachmann, Juliana Josefa Wolf, and at the bottom what looks like 
Pastor Kielecki.

As far as I know, Gottfried Lachmann's father was a Karl Lachmann. So 
if I've deciphered these names correctly, who is this other Samuel 
Lachmann who existed some 13 years before my ggf's birth? Ah, the 
mystery of genealogy.

-- 
Kenneth Browne researching: BROWN(E) LEIGHTON TAYLOR CLOUGH/CLUFF 
LACHMANN RUSSELL NOURSE MORSE PETTENGILL NOBLE SMALL WOLF MROCH 
LUEDTKE HECKBERT MANTEI
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From gpvjem at sasktel.net  Sat Sep 14 13:43:06 2013
From: gpvjem at sasktel.net (gpvjem)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:43:06 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
References: <8D07F78A33D9993-2708-1B8E2@webmail-d237.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <7812AD9E019741A1B6F24B89546624FF@Marsh>

    According to the publication Die Evangelisch-Lutherischen Gemeinden in Russland printed in 1909  ("The Evangelical Lutheran Parishes in Russia"), the cornerstone for a wooden Lutheran church was laid in Heimtal in 1873, followed by the consecration on the 20th of August 1878.  It was some time later that the old manse was replaced with a new stone manse however.  
    
    Several years ago I had the opportunity to enter about 35 thousand names from the church records of Lodz  (Poland) Trinity Lutheran marriages, births and deaths into a Legacy software file.  The file can be accessed by SGGEE members on the SGGEE web site.  The period covered in these records was from 1825 to 1851, a consecutive 25 year period.  In the case of the marriages of which there were several hundred, I was surprised to see the number of marriages between Catholics and Lutherans.  The vast majority of these "mixed" marriages were between German Catholic men and German Lutheran women.  They were so noted in the Lodi Lutheran church records as were at least some of the births of their children who may have born to them .  Another interesting  tid-bit that I noticed, many of the Catholic men had come to Lodz from Tschechei (now the Czech Republic), likely to work in the textile industry for which Lodz was famous at the time.  I did not "recognize" any marriages between ethnic Poles and ethnic Germans but that is not to say it didn't occur.  It would be interesting to see Catholic church records for the same time period.

John Marsch
in Sunny Saskatchewan
-------------------------------------------------


  Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013: 

  In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran.  The people married each other or people from other German villages.  It was a great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again.  He was totally ostracized from the community.


  From: Krampetz at aol.com
  To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
  Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians

  There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
      Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
      Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.  
             -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)

  Char writes:
  Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I married a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to do on both sides - and this was in early 50s!) 

  But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different - out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church! 

  The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.

  I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting.  I know that Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were there (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and they were generally owners of larger estates. 

  I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the family years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had a Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - for love and marriage to happen...

  New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)

  My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if you did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer than the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more peasant rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.


  Charlotte DuBay
  hoeserhistory at aol.com

  _______________________________________________
  Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
  Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From lindakbowen at cox.net  Sat Sep 14 13:52:28 2013
From: lindakbowen at cox.net (Linda Bowen)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:52:28 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
In-Reply-To: <R8VW1m01W0GCnfk018VXiW>
References: <R8VW1m01W0GCnfk018VXiW>
Message-ID: <5234CC8C.4070200@cox.net>

Sorry if I gave the impression that I was checking those records for 
Jewishness.  I'm interested in expanding his family  to further my 
research.   That is why I'm going to
look at Catholic records for the area.  I'm dreading it because I've 
found the Catholic records to be a lot worse to look at, mainly
because they tend to have those long Polish names that I don't recognize 
and so they don't pop out as easily as the familiar German
names.
My mother's family is proving to be very difficult.  It sure would be 
nice to get them out of Volhynia .



On 9/14/2013 3:29 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> The records will confirm any theories you have though I don't know if a mixed marriage would ever be recorded at a Jewish synagogue.  An important thing to remember is that recording at authorized churches or synagogues pre WW I was mandated in Russian Poland.  That same mandate did not exist in Volhynia.
>
> The sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any other of the other often thought of indicators do not imply Jewish heritage.  I have seen all kinds of reasons given for a supposed Jewish heritage.  A lot of people insist I must be Jewish because of my surname but it simply isn't true.  Now a letter written in Yiddish by a family member as reported by Kenneth Browne in a previous message, that may be a different matter.  Here you have some kind of physical evidence.  For a typical German, Yiddish might be used to communicate at a market town but not in a letter.  I would not rely on a close dna match telling you about Jewish connections.  She may be just as misinformed as many others are.  I don't want to discourage your research.  I just don't want others jumping on the same bandwagon based on vague notions.
>
> As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with east European connections shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots.  It however proves nothing in terms of Jewishness.  If it were possible to check the dna of an ancestor from 1000 years ago, you might find that the percentage has not changed much because other factors have changed a lot.
>
> I am not anti-Jewish.  I just find that some people (not necessarily you) have an unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in some way and good research time gets wasted in going in that direction.
>
> Jerry Frank
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:33:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>
> I  have  ordered a  Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great
> grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find
> information on his family in these records.
> The film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
> I became involved in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz
> sounded  like a very Jewish name to me.
>
> My great grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a
> settler.
> My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic
> girl.   I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
> They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a nice"
> German girl" with Volhynian roots.
>
> I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data
> to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
> My younger brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
> My autosomal DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that
> included only 7% central Europe.
> It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4
> Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11% Volga-ural.
>
> One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA  told me that some
> of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
> My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in
> Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA indicate they may be
> Askenazi Jews.
>
> Message for Lynda Radke.
> One of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from
> Wladymir Wolynsk area.
> Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
> There is a Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil
> married Olga Hammerling.
> Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention
> these names in case something fits.
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic churches in Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us know.  Most certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they wanted a church connection but because they were mandated to do so by the government as long as there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the registration.  Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.  Mennonites registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they were not officially recognized as a church.
>>
>> In Volhynia, government regulations were more lax, at least until the 1890s.  Although parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus (literally prayer house) was a common entity.  Registration was done through the local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or groups of communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area, he would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The Kantor did not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and accuracy of the records he had received from a Kantor.
>> If some records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is not generally because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that the Kantor missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a particular period of time is missing, etc.
>>
>> German Catholics in Volhynia were quite rare.  Those there were often in the cities, occupied in some special trade rather than in farming.
>>
>> Jews in Volhynia were not large estate owners.  They were not permitted to own land in the 19th century.  They were numerous in number, being part of the Pale of Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. tradesmen but for those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>>
>> Rumors of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia but I have never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't forget that Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in the late 1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you, consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that suggests that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that they married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or ethnicity.  Such events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th century or earlier.
>>
>> And finally two comments from the other part of the thread.  The Vistula Germans tag is commonly applied to those Germans who lived along the Wisla River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.  As of 1815, this territory became part of Russian Poland so after that year there would be no migration of Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They were already part of it.
>>
>> And regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not the case.  They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often adapting some local customs and food items along the way).  But they became Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time.  For example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now became Polish.
>>
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
>> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:45:57 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013:
>>
>> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran.  The people married each other or people from other German villages.  It was a great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again.  He was totally ostracized from the community.
>>
>>
>> From: Krampetz at aol.com
>> To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
>>
>> There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
>>       Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
>>       Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.
>>              -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)
>>
>> Char writes:
>> Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I married a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to do on both sides - and this was in early 50s!)
>>
>> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different - out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church!
>>
>> The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.
>>
>> I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting.  I know that Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were there (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and they were generally owners of larger estates.
>>
>> I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the family years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had a Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - for love and marriage to happen...
>>
>> New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)
>>
>> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if you did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer than the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more peasant rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.
>>
>>
>> Charlotte DuBay
>> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
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>



From hhennig at sympatico.ca  Sat Sep 14 14:22:19 2013
From: hhennig at sympatico.ca (Hart @ Hilda)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 17:22:19 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Unsubscribe Please
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP786FE70C23816342BAEECADA240@phx.gbl>

Please unsubscribe

 

Thank you

Hart Hennig

 


From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sat Sep 14 15:23:14 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 18:23:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
Message-ID: <8D07FB022F9480F-768-1E16B@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com>


John Marsh wrote on Sep 14, 2013;
According to the publication Die  Evangelisch-Lutherischen Gemeinden in Russland printed in 1909  ("The  Evangelical Lutheran Parishes in Russia"), the cornerstone for  a wooden Lutheran church was laid in Heimtal in 1873, followed by the  consecration on the 20th of August 1878.  It was some time later that  the old manse was replaced with a new stone manse however.  

John,
Thanks for the heads up on marriage dates available to us. I will have to buy a membership so I can search. 
And yes, that is what I had read also - except that I understood it as this: The wooden "church" structures that they built (and not only at Heimthal) were not considered "parishes" or "parish churches". They were considered "chapels". And one Lutheran pastor had so many to attend to that his sometimes would only visit a "chapel" once in a year. I believe that there were 10,000 worshipers who attended the stone Zhitomir Parish at this time. Pastor Wasen whom I earlier wrote about lived in the stone manse there in Zhitomir. And the chapels' services were often times conducted by lay people (or as Jerry pointed out, sometimes by kantors - if they had enough men.)

Like much of European history and geography at the time, it is so muddy. Names change, places change hands, people move, people are called by different "names"...etc. I think it is so interesting, but as I tell all of my cousins who are not involved in genealogy research, nothing is set in stone. (I also always preface my work with "These are my facts - until I find new data". That is not copyrighted so you are welcome to use it. hah) 

BTW, some family cousins get very upset with me. I find a record where their loved one's name is spelled differently, or their birthplace is questioned, and my cousins want me to use the data that THEY "know is right". I tell them that I cannot/willnot change the records that I find,  but will include both dates, names, or whatever. Not so good for me! (One cousin keeps telling me that their father "spelled his name wrong" until he was 21!) Gotta laugh!

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sat Sep 14 15:39:08 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 18:39:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Heimthal church of 1926
Message-ID: <8D07FB25C1B38A7-105C-1D1C8@webmail-m257.sysops.aol.com>


Thank you for the Heimthal church photo but my computer doesn't have the stuff to open your photo files...
 so I googled for Lutheran churches in Heimthal, Russia, and got a photo. You can try it. 

Says the photographer John Lawrence, JL Outdoor Photography												Member since 2007: 
This is the 2nd church built by this congration (sic).  The first, built by German speaking immigrants for the Volhnia area of Russia, was constructed in 1899.  The current church (shown) was built in 1926.  Unfortunately, there are no regular scheduled services being held there.  It is still interesting from a historical point of view.
Response:
This congregation has had regular church services since 1893, starting in homes, and still has them here every Sunday at 10:30 am, with multi-generational members attending.  We also have several weddings here each year.  Please feel free to drop in and join us! Not sure where you got your information, JL?
Response:
email: stjohnsheimthallutheran at gmail.com

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From gerald.klatt at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 14 16:06:51 2013
From: gerald.klatt at shaw.ca (Gerald Klatt)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:06:51 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
References: <8D07FB022F9480F-768-1E16B@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <0A018A2E21A041349BBF777218C945E5@DEN>

There can be any number of reasons for the various spelling of names. There
was no standardised spelling initially, it was all by sound. The recording
person wrote what he heard and how he thought it should be spelt [just like
I did there]. If the person had a speech impediment or missing front teeth,
it could sound different to the recording person and get recorded that way.

Also, there were times in history,  depending on where they were living, it
may have been beneficial to change the name for political reasons. I have a
family member named 'Stachoske', they changed it for a time from that Polish
sounding name to the more German sounding 'Stach'. After the WW2 and once
they were securely settled in West Germany, they reverted back to the
original.

When our parents or ancestors first landed in NA, and depending on their
Port of Entry, immigration officials couldn't get the tongue or ears around
umlauts. English doesn't use them.  Names like Mueller, Oelke and
Haemmerling became Miller or Muller, Elke or Ehlke, Hammerling or
Hemmerling. If they landed in the US they could have adopted a different
spelling from the cousins in Canada.

As Charlotte points out, it can be a challenge. The uninformed that  insist
we can't possibly be from the same family. We spell our name differently.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:23 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia


>
>
> Like much of European history and geography at the time, it is so muddy. 
> Names change, places change hands, people move, people are called by 
> different "names"...etc. I think it is so interesting, but as I tell all 
> of my cousins who are not involved in genealogy research, nothing is set 
> in stone. (I also always preface my work with "These are my facts - until 
> I find new data". That is not copyrighted so you are welcome to use it. 
> hah)
>
> BTW, some family cousins get very upset with me. I find a record where 
> their loved one's name is spelled differently, or their birthplace is 
> questioned, and my cousins want me to use the data that THEY "know is 
> right". I tell them that I cannot/willnot change the records that I find, 
> but will include both dates, names, or whatever. Not so good for me! (One 
> cousin keeps telling me that their father "spelled his name wrong" until 
> he was 21!) Gotta laugh!
>
> Charlotte DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 



From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 14 16:33:54 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 17:33:54 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Heimthal church of 1926
In-Reply-To: <8D07FB25C1B38A7-105C-1D1C8@webmail-m257.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <573185991.19483236.1379201634571.JavaMail.root@cds026>

When I see the pictures associated with that email address and with a photographer, John Lawrence, I am looking at St. John's Lutheran Church at Heimtal, Alberta.  It was started by Germans from Volhynia.

For pics of the remains at the Volhynian Heimtal see
http://wolhynien.de/gallery/01/main.php?cmd=album&var1=heimthal/

Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 4:39:08 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Heimthal church of 1926


Thank you for the Heimthal church photo but my computer doesn't have the stuff to open your photo files...
 so I googled for Lutheran churches in Heimthal, Russia, and got a photo. You can try it. 

Says the photographer John Lawrence, JL Outdoor Photography												Member since 2007: 
This is the 2nd church built by this congration (sic).  The first, built by German speaking immigrants for the Volhnia area of Russia, was constructed in 1899.  The current church (shown) was built in 1926.  Unfortunately, there are no regular scheduled services being held there.  It is still interesting from a historical point of view.
Response:
This congregation has had regular church services since 1893, starting in homes, and still has them here every Sunday at 10:30 am, with multi-generational members attending.  We also have several weddings here each year.  Please feel free to drop in and join us! Not sure where you got your information, JL?
Response:
email: stjohnsheimthallutheran at gmail.com

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 14 16:45:36 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 17:45:36 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
In-Reply-To: <0A018A2E21A041349BBF777218C945E5@DEN>
Message-ID: <1232356645.19485662.1379202336178.JavaMail.root@cds026>

My only disagreement here is that immigration officials never changed the name of an immigrant.  They did not rely on verbal reports but copied the names that were on the immigrant's travel documents and passports.  Certainly there were transcription errors, some that may have even matched what an immigrant used at his final destination.  However, if the immigrant changed the spelling from what it was in Europe, it was done at his own volition upon arrival at his new home.


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Klatt" <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org, "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 5:06:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia

There can be any number of reasons for the various spelling of names. There
was no standardised spelling initially, it was all by sound. The recording
person wrote what he heard and how he thought it should be spelt [just like
I did there]. If the person had a speech impediment or missing front teeth,
it could sound different to the recording person and get recorded that way.

Also, there were times in history,  depending on where they were living, it
may have been beneficial to change the name for political reasons. I have a
family member named 'Stachoske', they changed it for a time from that Polish
sounding name to the more German sounding 'Stach'. After the WW2 and once
they were securely settled in West Germany, they reverted back to the
original.

When our parents or ancestors first landed in NA, and depending on their
Port of Entry, immigration officials couldn't get the tongue or ears around
umlauts. English doesn't use them.  Names like Mueller, Oelke and
Haemmerling became Miller or Muller, Elke or Ehlke, Hammerling or
Hemmerling. If they landed in the US they could have adopted a different
spelling from the cousins in Canada.

As Charlotte points out, it can be a challenge. The uninformed that  insist
we can't possibly be from the same family. We spell our name differently.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:23 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia


>
>
> Like much of European history and geography at the time, it is so muddy. 
> Names change, places change hands, people move, people are called by 
> different "names"...etc. I think it is so interesting, but as I tell all 
> of my cousins who are not involved in genealogy research, nothing is set 
> in stone. (I also always preface my work with "These are my facts - until 
> I find new data". That is not copyrighted so you are welcome to use it. 
> hah)
>
> BTW, some family cousins get very upset with me. I find a record where 
> their loved one's name is spelled differently, or their birthplace is 
> questioned, and my cousins want me to use the data that THEY "know is 
> right". I tell them that I cannot/willnot change the records that I find, 
> but will include both dates, names, or whatever. Not so good for me! (One 
> cousin keeps telling me that their father "spelled his name wrong" until 
> he was 21!) Gotta laugh!
>
> Charlotte DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From gerald.klatt at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 14 16:50:56 2013
From: gerald.klatt at shaw.ca (Gerald Klatt)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:50:56 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
References: <1232356645.19485662.1379202336178.JavaMail.root@cds026>
Message-ID: <12E0FAE6D8B34408A3C83010073A13C5@DEN>

That makes sense. They changed it themselves to comply with the local 
language.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Frank" <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: "Gerald Klatt" <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca>
Cc: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia


> My only disagreement here is that immigration officials never changed the 
> name of an immigrant.  They did not rely on verbal reports but copied the 
> names that were on the immigrant's travel documents and passports. 
> Certainly there were transcription errors, some that may have even matched 
> what an immigrant used at his final destination.  However, if the 
> immigrant changed the spelling from what it was in Europe, it was done at 
> his own volition upon arrival at his new home.
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerald Klatt" <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org, "Charlotte Dubay" 
> <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 5:06:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
>
> There can be any number of reasons for the various spelling of names. 
> There
> was no standardised spelling initially, it was all by sound. The recording
> person wrote what he heard and how he thought it should be spelt [just 
> like
> I did there]. If the person had a speech impediment or missing front 
> teeth,
> it could sound different to the recording person and get recorded that 
> way.
>
> Also, there were times in history,  depending on where they were living, 
> it
> may have been beneficial to change the name for political reasons. I have 
> a
> family member named 'Stachoske', they changed it for a time from that 
> Polish
> sounding name to the more German sounding 'Stach'. After the WW2 and once
> they were securely settled in West Germany, they reverted back to the
> original.
>
> When our parents or ancestors first landed in NA, and depending on their
> Port of Entry, immigration officials couldn't get the tongue or ears 
> around
> umlauts. English doesn't use them.  Names like Mueller, Oelke and
> Haemmerling became Miller or Muller, Elke or Ehlke, Hammerling or
> Hemmerling. If they landed in the US they could have adopted a different
> spelling from the cousins in Canada.
>
> As Charlotte points out, it can be a challenge. The uninformed that 
> insist
> we can't possibly be from the same family. We spell our name differently.
>
> Gerald
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:23 PM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
>
>
>>
>>
>> Like much of European history and geography at the time, it is so muddy.
>> Names change, places change hands, people move, people are called by
>> different "names"...etc. I think it is so interesting, but as I tell all
>> of my cousins who are not involved in genealogy research, nothing is set
>> in stone. (I also always preface my work with "These are my facts - until
>> I find new data". That is not copyrighted so you are welcome to use it.
>> hah)
>>
>> BTW, some family cousins get very upset with me. I find a record where
>> their loved one's name is spelled differently, or their birthplace is
>> questioned, and my cousins want me to use the data that THEY "know is
>> right". I tell them that I cannot/willnot change the records that I find,
>> but will include both dates, names, or whatever. Not so good for me! (One
>> cousin keeps telling me that their father "spelled his name wrong" until
>> he was 21!) Gotta laugh!
>>
>> Charlotte DuBay
>> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 



From kbrowne01518 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 14 18:26:55 2013
From: kbrowne01518 at gmail.com (Kenneth Browne)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 21:26:55 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
In-Reply-To: <1367661206.19445937.1379191048112.JavaMail.root@cds026>
References: <1367661206.19445937.1379191048112.JavaMail.root@cds026>
Message-ID: <52350CDF.70502@gmail.com>

On 09/14/2013 04:37 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> The letter written in Yiddish seems to imply a strong Jewish connection.  Many Germans would have some knowledge of Yiddish because of the need to communicate in the marketplace.  They would not normally use it to write a letter.  Are you certain it was Yiddish or could it have been low German?  There are some similarities.
I know neither Yiddish nor German but I was able to get the Yiddish 
letter translated after contacting a local woman thru the National 
Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, MA. In addition the later letter 
(1937) specifies that Samuel had not replied 'because I wrote 
Yiddish'. As far as I know Samuel did not know Yiddish. I suspect that 
Beile Lachmann must have been a sister-in-law via marriage, but have 
no indication of a male Lachmann named "Keyler". BTW, both letters 
were sent from Berlin and the return address had another name, 
Israelowicz.
> I am a little confused about your question regarding Samuel.  I only see an 1865/6 birth described, not one 13 years earlier.  If Samuel's birth is recorded in the Lutheran Church in 1865 and his parent's marriage in the Lutheran Church in 1852, where does the Jewish connection enter in?  The marriage record by the way would indicate if either spouse was anything other than Lutheran.
I'd love to have someone who can read Polish look at it and see just 
what it reveals. I was studying the document recently trying to see if 
I might be able to transcribe it into a computer file and then run it 
through Google translate. However, the writing is such that it would 
be a monumental task for me.
>
I've had the 1852 file for several years but had never noticed what 
looks like Samuel Lachmann in the writing. It's hard to decipher 
however. If someone knows Polish they'd have a much better chance to 
figure it out.

As for the two letters (there apparently was another letter (second in 
sequence) based on the context of the 1937 letter which states 'I 
wrote you twice before but you did not reply because I wrote Yiddish'. 
I've been seeking help understanding this situation through this list, 
a visit and emails to the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C., as well 
as the Yad Vashem website. I was able to contact a Connecticut 
resident whose father had submitted a Page of Remembrance for a Beile 
Lachman. This Beile Lachman's husband was named Josel, not Keyler.
> Jerry
>
Anyone who has any thoughts on this subject is welcome to email me 
directly and I will send copies of the pertinent documents either via 
an email attachment OR a Dropbox link.

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenneth Browne" <kbrowne01518 at gmail.com>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 12:52:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>
> On 09/14/2013 12:51 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>>    Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.
> My ggfather, Samuel Lachmann, was born in Sept, 1865 in Rozhysche
> (sp?) and migrated to the U.S. (Chicago) in 1891. His first wife, my
> ggmother, Alvine Mroch died young and her origins are still a mystery,
> other than 1900 census which state
> place of birth as "Germany". Samuels place of birth is listed as
> "Russia."
>
> In re: the above citation, is it possible that Samuel's birth in 1865
> (or 1866) could have been recorded in a Lutheran church, even if he or
> his parents were Jewish? Seems unlikely except for the existence of
> letters written by his "sister in law" in 1931 and 1937. The first
> letter in Yiddish, the second in English with help of a friend
> states...'back to Poland we cannot go because we have no passport.'
>
> I also have a digital copy of Samuel's parents' marriage in 1852. I
> cannot read the Polish, but I can pick out some of the names and it
> appears to mention a Samuel Lachmann. Other keywords that I picked out
> of the document (a .TIF file) are Kielce, Antonielow, Gottfried
> Lachmann, Juliana Josefa Wolf, and at the bottom what looks like
> Pastor Kielecki.
>
> As far as I know, Gottfried Lachmann's father was a Karl Lachmann. So
> if I've deciphered these names correctly, who is this other Samuel
> Lachmann who existed some 13 years before my ggf's birth? Ah, the
> mystery of genealogy.
>



From mackzie at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 14 20:10:59 2013
From: mackzie at earthlink.net (Beth Burke)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 22:10:59 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
In-Reply-To: <12E0FAE6D8B34408A3C83010073A13C5@DEN>
References: <1232356645.19485662.1379202336178.JavaMail.root@cds026>
	<12E0FAE6D8B34408A3C83010073A13C5@DEN>
Message-ID: <000701ceb1c1$36845610$a38d0230$@earthlink.net>

I can attest that, at least in my family, a surname was changed at the time
that the individual applied to become a naturalized citizen.  The surname
was Tietz, and Louis Tietz was tired of the surname being pronounced "Tits."
(Understandable.)  

On his naturalization paperwork, he changed the "T" to a "D" and ever since
the surname has been "Dietz."

One can hardly blame Louis for this change.

Beth Burke
Verona, WI

-----Original Message-----
From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] On
Behalf Of Gerald Klatt
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 6:51 PM
To: Jerry Frank
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia

That makes sense. They changed it themselves to comply with the local
language.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Frank" <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: "Gerald Klatt" <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca>
Cc: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia


> My only disagreement here is that immigration officials never changed the 
> name of an immigrant.  They did not rely on verbal reports but copied the 
> names that were on the immigrant's travel documents and passports. 
> Certainly there were transcription errors, some that may have even matched

> what an immigrant used at his final destination.  However, if the 
> immigrant changed the spelling from what it was in Europe, it was done at 
> his own volition upon arrival at his new home.
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerald Klatt" <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org, "Charlotte Dubay" 
> <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 5:06:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
>
> There can be any number of reasons for the various spelling of names. 
> There
> was no standardised spelling initially, it was all by sound. The recording
> person wrote what he heard and how he thought it should be spelt [just 
> like
> I did there]. If the person had a speech impediment or missing front 
> teeth,
> it could sound different to the recording person and get recorded that 
> way.
>
> Also, there were times in history,  depending on where they were living, 
> it
> may have been beneficial to change the name for political reasons. I have 
> a
> family member named 'Stachoske', they changed it for a time from that 
> Polish
> sounding name to the more German sounding 'Stach'. After the WW2 and once
> they were securely settled in West Germany, they reverted back to the
> original.
>
> When our parents or ancestors first landed in NA, and depending on their
> Port of Entry, immigration officials couldn't get the tongue or ears 
> around
> umlauts. English doesn't use them.  Names like Mueller, Oelke and
> Haemmerling became Miller or Muller, Elke or Ehlke, Hammerling or
> Hemmerling. If they landed in the US they could have adopted a different
> spelling from the cousins in Canada.
>
> As Charlotte points out, it can be a challenge. The uninformed that 
> insist
> we can't possibly be from the same family. We spell our name differently.
>
> Gerald
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:23 PM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
>
>
>>
>>
>> Like much of European history and geography at the time, it is so muddy.
>> Names change, places change hands, people move, people are called by
>> different "names"...etc. I think it is so interesting, but as I tell all
>> of my cousins who are not involved in genealogy research, nothing is set
>> in stone. (I also always preface my work with "These are my facts - until
>> I find new data". That is not copyrighted so you are welcome to use it.
>> hah)
>>
>> BTW, some family cousins get very upset with me. I find a record where
>> their loved one's name is spelled differently, or their birthplace is
>> questioned, and my cousins want me to use the data that THEY "know is
>> right". I tell them that I cannot/willnot change the records that I find,
>> but will include both dates, names, or whatever. Not so good for me! (One
>> cousin keeps telling me that their father "spelled his name wrong" until
>> he was 21!) Gotta laugh!
>>
>> Charlotte DuBay
>> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From LeissKG at web.de  Sun Sep 15 01:44:09 2013
From: LeissKG at web.de (Klaus-Guenter Leiss)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 10:44:09 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
In-Reply-To: <8D07F1C7887A5A8-ED0-1A64F@webmail-d130.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D07F1C7887A5A8-ED0-1A64F@webmail-d130.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <52357359.12409.2EE04E@LeissKG.web.de>

Am 14 Sep 2013 um 0:46 hat Charlotte Dubay geschrieben:
> 
> There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
>     Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
>     Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.   
>            -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after
>            1854(?)
> 
> 
> Yes, some of my relatives said that they were born in Poland (Luts'k) where
> there was not actual Poland all the years that my ancestors were there.
> They still considered themselves German Lutherans, spoke only German.
> (until Russia demanded that they learn Russian in school, around 1940s.)
> They soon left (after communists shot the husband) - walking 4 months to
> the west. 
> 
> Charlotte DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
> 
Since Poland, after the first World War, conquered parts of Russia 
(including Western Volhynia), your relatives from Luts'k lived in Poland
between 1921 and 1939. They also had to go to a polish school during that 
time. 

Klaus Leiss



From BruceB2332 at aol.com  Sat Sep 14 13:54:57 2013
From: BruceB2332 at aol.com (BruceB2332 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:54:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] How can I get my DNA tested?
Message-ID: <43778.251bc733.3f662721@aol.com>

Hi,
This really interests me, as both of my Grandparents were from German  
Volhynia.. How can I do this, and how much does it cost?
Sincerely,
Bruce Braun
 
 
In a message dated 9/14/2013 3:38:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org writes:

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Today's  Topics:

1. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Linda  Bowen)
2. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)
3. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:  1
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:33:43 -0500
From: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <5234BA17.1060605 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I  have  ordered a   Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great 
grandfather on my  mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find 
information on his  family in these records.
The film is back ordered so it may be awhile  before I get it.
I became involved in my family history because of him.  Jaruschewitz 
sounded  like a very Jewish name to me.

My great  grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a  
settler.
My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a  Catholic 
girl.   I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather  was Catholic.
They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a  nice" 
German girl" with Volhynian roots.

I had my autosomal  DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data 
to GEDmatch and  to FTDNA.
My younger brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
My  autosomal DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that  
included only 7% central Europe.
It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly  1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11%  Volga-ural.

One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA   told me that some 
of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
My brother's  YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in 
Germany and  several of the matches  for his YDNA indicate they may be 
Askenazi  Jews.

Message for Lynda Radke.
One of my  4th cousin  matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from 
Wladymir Wolynsk  area.
Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
There is a Gustav Radke born in  1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
married Olga Hammerling.
Radke is  a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention 
these names  in case something fits.



On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank  wrote:
> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic  churches in 
Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us  know.  Most 
certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they  wanted a church 
connection but because they were mandated to do so by the  government as long as 
there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the  registration.  Jews 
also registered at Catholic churches until their  synagogues were given 
permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or  so.  Mennonites 
registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they  were not officially 
recognized as a church.
>
> In Volhynia,  government regulations were more lax, at least until the 
1890s.  Although  parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus 
(literally prayer house)  was a common entity.  Registration was done through the 
local Lutheran  Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or 
groups of  communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct  
funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve  
communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area,  he 
would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The  Kantor did 
not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of  the pages of 
St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality  and accuracy 
of the records he had received from a Kantor.
> If some  records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is 
not generally  because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that 
the Kantor  missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a 
particular period  of time is missing, etc.
>
> German Catholics in Volhynia were  quite rare.  Those there were often in 
the cities, occupied in some  special trade rather than in farming.
>
> Jews in Volhynia were  not large estate owners.  They were not permitted 
to own land in the 19th  century.  They were numerous in number, being part 
of the Pale of  Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. 
tradesmen but for  those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>
> Rumors  of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia 
but I have  never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't 
forget that  Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in the 
late  1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German  
surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the  
possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you,  
consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that  suggests 
that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that  they 
married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or  ethnicity.  Such 
events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th  century or earlier.
>
> And finally two comments from the other  part of the thread.  The Vistula 
Germans tag is commonly applied to those  Germans who lived along the Wisla 
River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.   As of 1815, this territory became 
part of Russian Poland so after that year  there would be no migration of 
Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They  were already part of it.
>
> And regarding Germans being known as  Russians after 1854 - this was not 
the case.  They always remained German  by ethnicity (of course often 
adapting some local customs and food items along  the way).  But they became 
Russian as a nationality based on the  controlling power at the time.  For 
example, in 1921, the Germans in  western Volhynia who had been Russian, now 
became  Polish.
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlotte Dubay"  <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  9:45:57 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
>
>
>
> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14,  2013:
>
> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to  Russian Poland 
sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and  Lutheran.  The 
people married each other or people from other German  villages.  It was a 
great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was  Catholic.  One sibling of my 
grandmother did this, and the family never  spoke to him again.  He was totally 
ostracized from the  community.
>
>
> From: Krampetz at aol.com
> To:  hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Friday,  September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  German Prussians vs German Russians
>
> There are two kinds of  Germans from Russia too..
>      Those that were from  Russia (Volhynia) and
>      Those from Poland, who gave  Russia as their home.
>              -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after  
1854(?)
>
> Char writes:
> Yes, prejudice between Catholics  and German Lutherans ran deep. (I 
married a Catholic, and they loved him, but  hated it when I "converted"- big to 
do on both sides - and this was in early  50s!)
>
> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was  sometimes different - 
out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few  actual parish 
buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at  Heimthal in 
particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in  1894.) So history 
shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or  baptized USING A CATHOLIC 
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was  better than none church!
>
> The Catholic church records are said  to be thorough; I don't know 
procedure to get to the records, so I have not  done this search. Should. I am 
missing protestant baptism records that were  not found at St. Pete's.
>
> I haven't done research to see what  the population was in Volhynia for 
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would  be interesting.  I know that 
Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were  generally business men and ran almost 
all of the factories in the full  Volhynia region when my ancestors were 
there (100 some factories, and more  than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
statistic). Just a small % of the Jews  were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) 
and they were generally owners of  larger estates.
>
> I tried to do some research on local Judaism  because some cousins think 
that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and  perhaps converted in 
Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and  whisperings in the family 
years ago. But I have had no luck finding  Bonderman(n) history. Even had a 
Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in  his records, but can't seem 
to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near.  Weichman(n) families held 
Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic  doesn't hold that there 
would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the  German peasants/farmers - for 
love and marriage to happen...
>
>  New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German  
Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! 
hmmm.  (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German  
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a 
"Russian".  Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went.  hah)
>
> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they  hated Poles. The 
Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on  the streets of 
Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were  jailed if you 
did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in  Bromberg 
then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way  longer than 
the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early  1860s. We 
assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more  peasant 
rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat  itself.
>
>
> Charlotte DuBay
>  hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>



------------------------------

Message:  2
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:29:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jerry Frank  <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <134130857.19443869.1379190572099.JavaMail.root at cds026>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=utf-8

The records will confirm any theories you  have though I don't know if a 
mixed marriage would ever be recorded at a  Jewish synagogue.  An important 
thing to remember is that recording at  authorized churches or synagogues pre 
WW I was mandated in Russian  Poland.  That same mandate did not exist in 
Volhynia.  

The  sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any other of the other often 
thought  of indicators do not imply Jewish heritage.  I have seen all kinds 
of  reasons given for a supposed Jewish heritage.  A lot of people insist I 
 must be Jewish because of my surname but it simply isn't true.  Now a  
letter written in Yiddish by a family member as reported by Kenneth Browne in  
a previous message, that may be a different matter.  Here you have some  
kind of physical evidence.  For a typical German, Yiddish might be used  to 
communicate at a market town but not in a letter.  I would not rely on  a close 
dna match telling you about Jewish connections.  She may be just  as 
misinformed as many others are.  I don't want to discourage your  research.  I 
just don't want others jumping on the same bandwagon based  on vague notions.

As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with  east European 
connections shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots.  It  however proves nothing 
in terms of Jewishness.  If it were possible to  check the dna of an ancestor 
from 1000 years ago, you might find that the  percentage has not changed 
much because other factors have changed a  lot.  

I am not anti-Jewish.  I just find that some people  (not necessarily you) 
have an unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in  some way and good 
research time gets wasted in going in that  direction.

Jerry Frank



----- Original Message  -----
From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:33:43  PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans

I  have  ordered a  Catholic records film for  Ostrog. My second great 
grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm  hoping I might find 
information on his family in these records.
The  film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
I became involved  in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz 
sounded  like a  very Jewish name to me.

My great grandmother's baptismal records  indicates he was Catholic and a 
settler.
My grandmother was horrified  when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic 
girl.   I'm not sure  she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
They ended up not getting  married and in the end he married a nice" 
German girl" with Volhynian  roots.

I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded  my raw data 
to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
My younger brother tested for  YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
My autosomal DNA  really surprised me  when it gave me a mix that 
included only 7% central Europe.
It turns  out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
Scandinavian , 31 %  eastern Europe  and 11% Volga-ural.

One of my best matches on  GEDmatch and also on FTDNA  told me that some 
of my fairly close  matches are Jewish.
My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern  Europe than it is in 
Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA  indicate they may be 
Askenazi Jews.

Message for Lynda Radke.
One  of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from  
Wladymir Wolynsk area.
Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
There is a  Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
married Olga  Hammerling.
Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd  mention 
these names in case something fits.



On 9/14/2013  11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> I have not heard of Lutherans being  registered in Catholic churches in 
Volhynia.  If any readers find such  records, please let us know.  Most 
certainly they did so in Russian  Poland, not because they wanted a church 
connection but because they were  mandated to do so by the government as long as 
there was no Lutheran church  nearby to accommodate the registration.  Jews 
also registered at Catholic  churches until their synagogues were given 
permission to do registrations, I  think in the 1830s or so.  Mennonites 
registered at Lutheran or Catholic  churches because they were not officially 
recognized as a  church.
>
> In Volhynia, government regulations were more lax, at  least until the 
1890s.  Although parish buildings were few and far  between, a Betshaus 
(literally prayer house) was a common entity.   Registration was done through the 
local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher /  teacher) which most communities, or 
groups of communities, had.  He was  authorized to perform baptisms, conduct 
funerals, and teach confirmation  class.  Only the pastor could serve 
communion and perform  marriages.  When the pastor came through the area, he would 
copy the  Kantorate records into the official church book.  The Kantor did 
not  always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of 
St.  Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and accuracy 
of  the records he had received from a Kantor.
> If some records for a  particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is 
not generally because they are  recorded at a Catholic church but rather that 
the Kantor missed the entry, the  pastor missed copying it, a book for a 
particular period of time is missing,  etc.
>
> German Catholics in Volhynia were quite rare.  Those  there were often in 
the cities, occupied in some special trade rather than in  farming.
>
> Jews in Volhynia were not large estate owners.   They were not permitted 
to own land in the 19th century.  They were  numerous in number, being part 
of the Pale of Settlement.  I don't know  the percentage of farmers vs. 
tradesmen but for those that were farmers, think  "Fiddler on the Roof".
>
> Rumors of Jewish connections seem to  abound among Germans from Russia 
but I have never seen any verified stories of  such a connection.  Don't 
forget that Jews did not use surnames until  mandated to do so by Napoleon in the 
late 1700s.  It is far more likely  that they adapted or adopted a German 
surname than that they are your  ancestor.  I am not saying that the 
possibility should never be explored  but if other options remain open to you, 
consider them first.  I am not  aware of any particular history that suggests 
that German Lutherans married  Jews, certainly no more so than that they 
married a Catholic, a Pole, a  Ukrainian or any other faith or ethnicity.  Such 
events occurred but they  were very rare in the 19th century or earlier.
>
> And finally two  comments from the other part of the thread.  The Vistula 
Germans tag is  commonly applied to those Germans who lived along the Wisla 
River east of  Thorn and on to Warsaw.  As of 1815, this territory became 
part of  Russian Poland so after that year there would be no migration of 
Vistula  Germans to Russian Poland.  They were already part of it.
>
>  And regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not 
the  case.  They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often 
adapting  some local customs and food items along the way).  But they became  
Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time.  For  
example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now  
became Polish.
>
>
>  Jerry
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message  -----
> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
>  To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  9:45:57 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
>
>
>
> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14,  2013:
>
> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to  Russian Poland 
sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and  Lutheran.  The 
people married each other or people from other German  villages.  It was a 
great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was  Catholic.  One sibling of my 
grandmother did this, and the family never  spoke to him again.  He was totally 
ostracized from the  community.
>
>
> From: Krampetz at aol.com
> To:  hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Friday,  September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  German Prussians vs German Russians
>
> There are two kinds of  Germans from Russia too..
>      Those that were from  Russia (Volhynia) and
>      Those from Poland, who gave  Russia as their home.
>              -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after  
1854(?)
>
> Char writes:
> Yes, prejudice between Catholics  and German Lutherans ran deep. (I 
married a Catholic, and they loved him, but  hated it when I "converted"- big to 
do on both sides - and this was in early  50s!)
>
> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was  sometimes different - 
out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few  actual parish 
buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at  Heimthal in 
particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in  1894.) So history 
shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or  baptized USING A CATHOLIC 
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was  better than none church!
>
> The Catholic church records are said  to be thorough; I don't know 
procedure to get to the records, so I have not  done this search. Should. I am 
missing protestant baptism records that were  not found at St. Pete's.
>
> I haven't done research to see what  the population was in Volhynia for 
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would  be interesting.  I know that 
Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were  generally business men and ran almost 
all of the factories in the full  Volhynia region when my ancestors were 
there (100 some factories, and more  than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
statistic). Just a small % of the Jews  were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) 
and they were generally owners of  larger estates.
>
> I tried to do some research on local Judaism  because some cousins think 
that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and  perhaps converted in 
Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and  whisperings in the family 
years ago. But I have had no luck finding  Bonderman(n) history. Even had a 
Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in  his records, but can't seem 
to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near.  Weichman(n) families held 
Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic  doesn't hold that there 
would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the  German peasants/farmers - for 
love and marriage to happen...
>
>  New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German  
Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! 
hmmm.  (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German  
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a 
"Russian".  Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went.  hah)
>
> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they  hated Poles. The 
Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on  the streets of 
Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were  jailed if you 
did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in  Bromberg 
then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way  longer than 
the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early  1860s. We 
assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more  peasant 
rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat  itself.
>
>
> Charlotte DuBay
>  hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


------------------------------

Message:  3
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:37:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jerry Frank  <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: Kenneth Browne  <kbrowne01518 at gmail.com>
Cc:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic  Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <1367661206.19445937.1379191048112.JavaMail.root at cds026>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=utf-8

The letter written in Yiddish seems to imply  a strong Jewish connection.  
Many Germans would have some knowledge of  Yiddish because of the need to 
communicate in the marketplace.  They  would not normally use it to write a 
letter.  Are you certain it was  Yiddish or could it have been low German?  
There are some  similarities.

I am a little confused about your question regarding  Samuel.  I only see 
an 1865/6 birth described, not one 13 years  earlier.  If Samuel's birth is 
recorded in the Lutheran Church in 1865  and his parent's marriage in the 
Lutheran Church in 1852, where does the  Jewish connection enter in?  The 
marriage record by the way would  indicate if either spouse was anything other 
than  Lutheran.


Jerry



----- Original Message  -----
From: "Kenneth Browne" <kbrowne01518 at gmail.com>
To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 12:52:43  PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans

On 09/14/2013 12:51 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>    Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were 
given  permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.
My ggfather,  Samuel Lachmann, was born in Sept, 1865 in Rozhysche 
(sp?) and migrated to  the U.S. (Chicago) in 1891. His first wife, my 
ggmother, Alvine Mroch died  young and her origins are still a mystery, 
other than 1900 census which  state
place of birth as "Germany". Samuels place of birth is listed as  
"Russia."

In re: the above citation, is it possible that Samuel's  birth in 1865 
(or 1866) could have been recorded in a Lutheran church,  even if he or 
his parents were Jewish? Seems unlikely except for the  existence of 
letters written by his "sister in law" in 1931 and 1937. The  first 
letter in Yiddish, the second in English with help of a friend  
states...'back to Poland we cannot go because we have no  passport.'

I also have a digital copy of Samuel's parents' marriage in  1852. I 
cannot read the Polish, but I can pick out some of the names and  it 
appears to mention a Samuel Lachmann. Other keywords that I picked out  
of the document (a .TIF file) are Kielce, Antonielow, Gottfried  
Lachmann, Juliana Josefa Wolf, and at the bottom what looks like  
Pastor Kielecki.

As far as I know, Gottfried Lachmann's father was  a Karl Lachmann. So 
if I've deciphered these names correctly, who is this  other Samuel 
Lachmann who existed some 13 years before my ggf's birth? Ah,  the 
mystery of genealogy.

-- 
Kenneth Browne researching:  BROWN(E) LEIGHTON TAYLOR CLOUGH/CLUFF 
LACHMANN RUSSELL NOURSE MORSE  PETTENGILL NOBLE SMALL WOLF MROCH 
LUEDTKE HECKBERT  MANTEI
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
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------------------------------

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End  of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue  22
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From BruceB2332 at aol.com  Sat Sep 14 15:33:44 2013
From: BruceB2332 at aol.com (BruceB2332 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 18:33:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] I have a question about Zion Lutheran
	Church in Vladimir Volhynsk
Message-ID: <449b3.3d8206fa.3f663e48@aol.com>

Can anyone please tell me about Zion Lutheran Church in Wladimir Volhynsk?  
This was where my great grandfather was a teacher,His name was  Julius 
Buelow, he was a German Lutheran in Ukraine, and my  Great-grandfather August 
Knull died there during his youngest daughter's  wedding.
Bruce Braun
 
 
In a message dated 9/14/2013 5:24:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org writes:

Send  Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
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Today's  Topics:

1. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans  (gpvjem)
2. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Linda  Bowen)
3. Unsubscribe Please (Hart @ Hilda)
4.  churches in Vohlynia (Charlotte  Dubay)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:  1
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:43:06 -0600
From: "gpvjem"  <gpvjem at sasktel.net>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>,  "Charlotte Dubay"
<hoeserhistory at aol.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <7812AD9E019741A1B6F24B89546624FF at Marsh>
Content-Type:  text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"

According  to the publication Die Evangelisch-Lutherischen Gemeinden in 
Russland printed  in 1909  ("The Evangelical Lutheran Parishes in Russia"), the 
cornerstone  for a wooden Lutheran church was laid in Heimtal in 1873, 
followed by the  consecration on the 20th of August 1878.  It was some time 
later that the  old manse was replaced with a new stone manse however.  

Several years ago I had the opportunity to enter about 35  thousand names 
from the church records of Lodz  (Poland) Trinity Lutheran  marriages, births 
and deaths into a Legacy software file.  The file can  be accessed by SGGEE 
members on the SGGEE web site.  The period covered  in these records was 
from 1825 to 1851, a consecutive 25 year period.  In  the case of the 
marriages of which there were several hundred, I was surprised  to see the number of 
marriages between Catholics and Lutherans.  The vast  majority of these 
"mixed" marriages were between German Catholic men and  German Lutheran women.  
They were so noted in the Lodi Lutheran church  records as were at least 
some of the births of their children who may have  born to them .  Another 
interesting  tid-bit that I noticed, many of  the Catholic men had come to Lodz 
from Tschechei (now the Czech Republic),  likely to work in the textile 
industry for which Lodz was famous at the  time.  I did not "recognize" any 
marriages betwe
en ethni
c Poles  and ethnic Germans but that is not to say it didn't occur.  It 
would be  interesting to see Catholic church records for the same time  period.

John Marsch
in Sunny  Saskatchewan
-------------------------------------------------


Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013: 

In my family, Vistula  Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland 
sometime after 1860s, the  difference was between Catholic and Lutheran.  The 
people married each  other or people from other German villages.  It was a great 
"sin" to  marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my 
grandmother  did this, and the family never spoke to him again.  He was totally  
ostracized from the community.


From:  Krampetz at aol.com
To: hoeserhistory at aol.com,  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013  8:56:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs  German Russians

There are two kinds of Germans from Russia  too..
Those that were from Russia (Volhynia)  and
Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their  home.  
-because  they  were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)

Char writes:
Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans  ran deep. (I married 
a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I  "converted"- big to do 
on both sides - and this was in early 50s!)  

But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes  different - 
out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual  parish 
buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in  particular 
wasn't  built until after my family left there in 1894.) So  history shows 
that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A  CATHOLIC 
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none  church! 

The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I  don't know 
procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search.  Should. I am 
missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St.  Pete's.

I haven't done research to see what the population was  in Volhynia for 
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be  interesting.  I know that Jewish 
farmers were rare. The Jews were  generally business men and ran almost all 
of the factories in the full  Volhynia region when my ancestors were there 
(100 some factories, and more  than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
statistic). Just a small % of the Jews  were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and 
they were generally owners of  larger estates. 

I tried to do some research on local Judaism  because some cousins think 
that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and  perhaps converted in Heimthal. 
This thought is held because of old photos and  whisperings in the family 
years ago. But I have had no luck finding  Bonderman(n) history. Even had a 
Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in  his records, but can't seem to 
find the surname Bonderman anywhere near.  Weichman(n) families held 
Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic  doesn't hold that there would 
be a peasant Jewish family in with all the  German peasants/farmers - for 
love and marriage to happen...

New  thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German 
Lutherans  married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm.  
(Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German  
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian".  
Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went.  hah)

My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they  hated Poles. The 
Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on  the streets of 
Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were  jailed if you 
did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in  Bromberg 
then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way  longer than 
the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early  1860s. We 
assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more  peasant 
rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat  itself.


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message:  2
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:52:28 -0500
From: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <5234CC8C.4070200 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8;  format=flowed

Sorry if I gave the impression that I was checking those  records for 
Jewishness.  I'm interested in expanding his family   to further my 
research.   That is why I'm going to
look at  Catholic records for the area.  I'm dreading it because I've 
found  the Catholic records to be a lot worse to look at, mainly
because they tend  to have those long Polish names that I don't recognize 
and so they don't  pop out as easily as the familiar German
names.
My mother's family is  proving to be very difficult.  It sure would be 
nice to get them out  of Volhynia .



On 9/14/2013 3:29 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>  The records will confirm any theories you have though I don't know if a 
mixed  marriage would ever be recorded at a Jewish synagogue.  An important  
thing to remember is that recording at authorized churches or synagogues 
pre  WW I was mandated in Russian Poland.  That same mandate did not exist in  
Volhynia.
>
> The sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any  other of the other 
often thought of indicators do not imply Jewish  heritage.  I have seen all 
kinds of reasons given for a supposed Jewish  heritage.  A lot of people insist 
I must be Jewish because of my surname  but it simply isn't true.  Now a 
letter written in Yiddish by a family  member as reported by Kenneth Browne in 
a previous message, that may be a  different matter.  Here you have some 
kind of physical evidence.   For a typical German, Yiddish might be used to 
communicate at a market town  but not in a letter.  I would not rely on a 
close dna match telling you  about Jewish connections.  She may be just as 
misinformed as many others  are.  I don't want to discourage your research.  I 
just don't want  others jumping on the same bandwagon based on vague notions.
>
>  As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with east European 
connections  shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots.  It however proves nothing 
in  terms of Jewishness.  If it were possible to check the dna of an 
ancestor  from 1000 years ago, you might find that the percentage has not changed 
much  because other factors have changed a lot.
>
> I am not  anti-Jewish.  I just find that some people (not necessarily 
you) have an  unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in some way and good 
research time  gets wasted in going in that direction.
>
> Jerry  Frank
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  1:33:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and  Lutheran Germans
>
> I  have  ordered a  Catholic  records film for Ostrog. My second great
> grandfather on my mother's  side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find
> information on his family in  these records.
> The film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I  get it.
> I became involved in my family history because of him.  Jaruschewitz
> sounded  like a very Jewish name to  me.
>
> My great grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was  Catholic and a
> settler.
> My grandmother was horrified when my  uncle became engaged to a Catholic
> girl.   I'm not sure she  realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
> They ended up not getting  married and in the end he married a nice"
> German girl" with Volhynian  roots.
>
> I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then  uploaded my raw data
> to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
> My younger  brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
> My autosomal  DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that
> included only  7% central Europe.
> It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British  Isles, 1/4
> Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11%  Volga-ural.
>
> One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on  FTDNA  told me that some
> of my fairly close matches are  Jewish.
> My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe  than it is in
> Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA  indicate they may be
> Askenazi Jews.
>
> Message for Lynda  Radke.
> One of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the  name Radke  from
> Wladymir Wolynsk area.
> Wilhelm Radke  married Eva Kreuger
> There is a Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke  born in 1890 . Emil
> married Olga Hammerling.
> Radke is a very  common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention
> these names in  case something fits.
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM,  Jerry Frank wrote:
>> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered  in Catholic churches in 
Volhynia.  If any readers find such records,  please let us know.  Most 
certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not  because they wanted a church 
connection but because they were mandated to do  so by the government as long as 
there was no Lutheran church nearby to  accommodate the registration.  Jews 
also registered at Catholic churches  until their synagogues were given 
permission to do registrations, I think in  the 1830s or so.  Mennonites 
registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches  because they were not officially 
recognized as a  church.
>>
>> In Volhynia, government regulations were more  lax, at least until the 
1890s.  Although parish buildings were few and  far between, a Betshaus 
(literally prayer house) was a common entity.   Registration was done through the 
local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher /  teacher) which most communities, or 
groups of communities, had.  He was  authorized to perform baptisms, conduct 
funerals, and teach confirmation  class.  Only the pastor could serve 
communion and perform  marriages.  When the pastor came through the area, he 
would copy the  Kantorate records into the official church book.  The Kantor did 
not  always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of 
St.  Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and accuracy 
of  the records he had received from a Kantor.
>> If some records for a  particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is 
not generally because they are  recorded at a Catholic church but rather that 
the Kantor missed the entry, the  pastor missed copying it, a book for a 
particular period of time is missing,  etc.
>>
>> German Catholics in Volhynia were quite  rare.  Those there were often 
in the cities, occupied in some special  trade rather than in farming.
>>
>> Jews in Volhynia were  not large estate owners.  They were not permitted 
to own land in the 19th  century.  They were numerous in number, being part 
of the Pale of  Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. 
tradesmen but for  those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>>
>>  Rumors of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia 
but I  have never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't 
forget  that Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in 
the late  1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German  
surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the  
possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you,  
consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that  suggests 
that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that  they 
married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or  ethnicity.  Such 
events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th  century or earlier.
>>
>> And finally two comments from the  other part of the thread.  The 
Vistula Germans tag is commonly applied to  those Germans who lived along the 
Wisla River east of Thorn and on to  Warsaw.  As of 1815, this territory became 
part of Russian Poland so  after that year there would be no migration of 
Vistula Germans to Russian  Poland.  They were already part of it.
>>
>> And  regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not 
the  case.  They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often 
adapting  some local customs and food items along the way).  But they became  
Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time.  For  
example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now  
became Polish.
>>
>>
>>  Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----  Original Message -----
>> From: "Charlotte Dubay"  <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
>> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  9:45:57 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and  Lutheran Germans
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda Susak  wrote on Sept 14, 2013:
>>
>> In my family, Vistula Germans,  before they moved to Russian Poland 
sometime after 1860s, the difference was  between Catholic and Lutheran.  The 
people married each other or people  from other German villages.  It was a 
great "sin" to marry a Pole because  he/she was Catholic.  One sibling of my 
grandmother did this, and the  family never spoke to him again.  He was 
totally ostracized from the  community.
>>
>>
>> From:  Krampetz at aol.com
>> To: hoeserhistory at aol.com,  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013  8:56:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs  German Russians
>>
>> There are two kinds of Germans from  Russia too..
>>       Those that were from Russia  (Volhynia) and
>>       Those from Poland, who  gave Russia as their home.
>>           -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after  
1854(?)
>>
>> Char writes:
>> Yes, prejudice  between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I 
married a Catholic, and  they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to 
do on both sides - and  this was in early 50s!)
>>
>> But actually in Heimthal and  Volhynia area it was sometimes different - 
out of necessity. As I previously  wrote, there were few actual parish 
buildings for church attendance. (The  brick manse/church at Heimthal in 
particular wasn't  built until after my  family left there in 1894.) So history 
shows that the Lutherans many times  were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC 
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out:  some church was better than none church!
>>
>> The Catholic  church records are said to be thorough; I don't know 
procedure to get to the  records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am 
missing protestant  baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.
>>
>> I  haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for  
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting.  I know that  
Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost  
all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were 
there  (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
statistic).  Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) 
and they  were generally owners of larger estates.
>>
>> I tried to do  some research on local Judaism because some cousins think 
that our  ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in 
Heimthal. This  thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the 
family years ago.  But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had 
a Jewish  genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem 
to find the  surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held 
Christian baptisms  way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there 
would be a peasant  Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - 
for love and marriage  to happen...
>>
>> New thought: isn't it strange that there  is history shown that German 
Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity  toward Polish Catholics! 
hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in  the Dakotahs as my German 
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a  "Polack" - or a 
"Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them  wherever they went. hah)
>>
>> My ggrandfather lived in  Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The 
Prussian government would not  allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of 
Bromberg just prior to my  ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if 
you did. No churches, or Polish  schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg 
then, even though Poles were the  majority and had been there way longer 
than the Germans (which you all  probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We 
assume that his father died in  the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more 
peasant rights. History seems ironic -  and certainly seems to repeat itself.
>>
>>
>>  Charlotte DuBay
>> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>>  Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>>  Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>



------------------------------

Message:  3
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 17:22:19 -0400
From: "Hart @ Hilda"  <hhennig at sympatico.ca>
To:  <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Unsubscribe Please
Message-ID:  <BLU0-SMTP786FE70C23816342BAEECADA240 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Please  unsubscribe



Thank you

Hart  Hennig




------------------------------

Message:  4
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 18:23:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charlotte Dubay  <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject:  [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
Message-ID:  <8D07FB022F9480F-768-1E16B at webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


John Marsh wrote on Sep 14,  2013;
According to the publication Die  Evangelisch-Lutherischen  Gemeinden in 
Russland printed in 1909  ("The  Evangelical Lutheran  Parishes in Russia"), 
the cornerstone for  a wooden Lutheran church was  laid in Heimtal in 1873, 
followed by the  consecration on the 20th of  August 1878.  It was some time 
later that  the old manse was  replaced with a new stone manse however.  

John,
Thanks for the  heads up on marriage dates available to us. I will have to 
buy a membership so  I can search. 
And yes, that is what I had read also - except that I  understood it as 
this: The wooden "church" structures that they built (and not  only at 
Heimthal) were not considered "parishes" or "parish churches". They  were considered 
"chapels". And one Lutheran pastor had so many to attend to  that his 
sometimes would only visit a "chapel" once in a year. I believe that  there were 
10,000 worshipers who attended the stone Zhitomir Parish at this  time. 
Pastor Wasen whom I earlier wrote about lived in the stone manse there  in 
Zhitomir. And the chapels' services were often times conducted by lay  people (or 
as Jerry pointed out, sometimes by kantors - if they had enough  men.)

Like much of European history and geography at the time, it is so  muddy. 
Names change, places change hands, people move, people are called by  
different "names"...etc. I think it is so interesting, but as I tell all of my  
cousins who are not involved in genealogy research, nothing is set in stone.  
(I also always preface my work with "These are my facts - until I find new  
data". That is not copyrighted so you are welcome to use it. hah) 

BTW,  some family cousins get very upset with me. I find a record where 
their loved  one's name is spelled differently, or their birthplace is 
questioned, and my  cousins want me to use the data that THEY "know is right". I 
tell them that I  cannot/willnot change the records that I find,  but will 
include both  dates, names, or whatever. Not so good for me! (One cousin keeps 
telling me  that their father "spelled his name wrong" until he was 21!) 
Gotta  laugh!

Charlotte  DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



------------------------------

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End  of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue  23
****************************************************



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sun Sep 15 05:41:26 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 08:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] could someone translate a tombstone
	inscription?
Message-ID: <8D0802807113593-15E0-22A7C@webmail-d225.sysops.aol.com>


This summer, a cousin made a special trip from ND to SD - 300 miles - just to take cemetery photos for me! 
They never thought about getting a good photo of the German inscription on the bottom of a tombstone. 
It is the tombstone of my great grandparents, died in 1910 and 1925 respectively, so stone is old.

It is very vague, and I have tried to enlarge it to get a good look at the letters, then put the words in a web translator.
 It always comes back garbled. I don't see any German word for God or Lord on it. 
Something like "until we meet again."

Is there someone who knows how to read German, who wouldn't mind trying? You may want a good photo program where you can enlarge the words...Email me if you are willing to give it a try, and I will send you an attachment of the photo. Again, chances of success are slim, but thank you, 

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sun Sep 15 06:00:10 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 09:00:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] speaking Polish in Luts'k
Message-ID: <8D0802AA4826813-15E0-22C05@webmail-d225.sysops.aol.com>


> 
Since Poland, after the first World War, conquered parts of Russia 
(including Western Volhynia), your relatives from Luts'k lived in Poland
between 1921 and 1939. They also had to go to a polish school during that 
time. 

Klaus Leiss
 
Klaus:
The one aunt always said that she was born in Luts'k Poland - before it was Poland - 
but I can see now why she said that. It was probably Poland when she grew up.

Her daughter, who settled in SK Canada, said that she (the daughter) was taught Russian in 
school - and then only at the very end of their time there. She never mentioned Polish schools or
Polish language and I don't think she could speak it.  

(Was probably 1940-1, because it was before the war really broke out.
They walked 3+ months to Germany, and she said her feet never were dry. The mud would seep 
in around the shoestrings of her boots. They hid in barns to be clear of airplane bullets, and stole food
out of local gardens to live.)

Anyway, I know when my grandmother lived in Heimthal, before 1894, 
the Russians did not want the Germans
to learn to speak Russian. They weren't allowed to even speak to the Russian overseers, 
and were only taught German in her school. (and then didn't spend a lot of time in the classroom - not like
in Prussia.) Her family was more than glad NOT to speak Russian, because for the most part
they wanted to keep to their heritage. 
Her German did have an accent to it, but the other SD Germans could easily understand 
the family. 


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sun Sep 15 06:13:20 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 07:13:20 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] EV. LUTHERAN CHURCH RECORDS
In-Reply-To: <1379086295.46365.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1917995932.19615844.1379250800101.JavaMail.root@cds026>

Lois,

Volhynia is the northwestern part of modern day Ukraine.  The Odessa3 files are applicable to German settlements in former Russia, now Ukraine.  I don't think either of these has relevance to your search.

You already have the available microfilms for your family which unfortunately only contain birth records.  If you paste these coordinates 54.943907,23.063679 into the Google Map search box, it will take you to Sakiai, Lithuania where your family is from.  It is located in the Marjampole region which was once part of northeastern Russian Poland.  As I understand it, no additional microfilms are available for this parish.

The passenger records suggest that the family may have at least briefly moved west into East Prussia (then part of Germany).  This gets very confusing as this region was later taken over by Russia.  Lasdehnen is now in the Kaliningrad Oblast of Russia (pictures of it and the Lutheran Church there can be found on http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Lasdehnen - page is in German).  Church records for this location have been microfilmed but they only cover the years 1683-1835 which does not include the time frame your family was there.

Though no other records for Sakiai have been microfilmed, it is possible that additional church records are available in Lithuanian or Latvian Archives but I do not know how to go about searching in that area.

You will get numerous hits with a Google search for [Sakiai Lutheran] including pictures of the existing church.  It could lead to an address where you could write to see if more records are available.


Jerry Frank





----- Original Message -----
From: "lois bolnick" <loisarlene2001 at yahoo.com>
To: Ger-Poland-Volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 9:31:35 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] EV. LUTHERAN CHURCH RECORDS

Thank you, Robin, for helping me to try and find my relatives from Volhynia..? As I stated in my original post, I am up in my 80s and know VERY little about all the changes that occur daily on IT.? I thoroughly enjoyed reading ODESSA3.ORG .? Unfortunately, my relatives were not part of that group.? However, My relatives (HALB and PYK/PIECK) were in Eureka, Dakota Territory at the same time the GR were flowing into this territory.

My relatives had homesteaded in Tyndall, Bon Homme, Dakota Territory from 1873-1885 (this was in the southern part of what is now South Dakota) and moved to Eureka.? Two children were born there in 1885 and 1888.? Their oldest daughter was married in Eureka in 1889 in her father's house.? The whole family, including the newly married, then moved, almost immediately,?to Swanwick, Perry, Illinois.? I am surmising that they, not being GR, they did not "fit in".? I often wonder why they went to Illinois.? I have found no other relatives there.

Can you tell me just what VOLHYNIA territory comprises.? I am not familiar with that area.? I guess that is why I have never known where to search for records.? Only on the 1880? Bon Homme census did Mrs. Halbe (Pieck) say she was from RUS/POLAND.? All their other ?censuses said they were from Germany.

Here is my original email to Ger-Poland-Volhynia.

I have had copies of the 2 films (FHC 1945745 and 1945746) for about 6 years.? These are birth index films.? One side of the ?film is for the right side and the other film is for the left side of the church record.? Both my grandmother and great grandmother were on the same films.? Talk about luck!? 
?
My only clue to find my grandmother and great grandmother was that I had a copy of THE PERMISSION TO GO ABROAD.? It was issued by Sudargen town officials in May 1871 and signed by the pastor of the Protestant Lutheran Church of Szaki (Sakiai) and Sudargen (Sudargas).? I was told that the church was heavily destroyed in WWII and that records probably did not survive.? Can anyone confirm this?? Where can I try and locate more records?
?
My ggrandmother Emilie Berta PYK (Pieck) was born 9 March 1850.? Parents:? Jan Ferdinand and Henrika Hu?sing.? My grandmother Joana Friedrika Halbe was born 24 July 1868:? Parents: Friedrik Gustav and Emilie Berta PYK (Pieck).
?
Gustav Halbe emigrated to the USA on the Ship Borussia and arrived New York 27 March 1868.? German passenger list stated from Konigsburg (Kreis?).? Emilie and daughter Joana emigrated to the USA? on the ship Hammonia and arrived in New York 12 Oct 1871.
Passenger list (German) stated from Lasdehnen (East Prussia).? All church, census, naturalizatrion, death certificates state from Germany.
?
I am in my 80s and just don't know how to proceed with this.? Any suggestions????

Lois?
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sun Sep 15 07:15:47 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 08:15:47 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Acestors Krasnoritschka
In-Reply-To: <trinity-4ac2a75e-4121-4a05-b911-8bdfedb782df-1379082023876@3capp-webde-bs35>
Message-ID: <1387763827.19633085.1379254547538.JavaMail.root@cds026>

Krasnoritschka as you probably know is in the Zhitomir Parish.  You will not find any online databases that contain info for that time frame.

Some post 1900 church records are available in Zhitomir.  SGGEE does not have copies of these records but is currently working with local people to obtain extractions.  Unfortunately this is a long term project and it may be another year or more before the results are available.

Jerry




----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Gross" <rolands_gross at web.de>
To: Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:20:23 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Acestors Krasnoritschka




Hello, I am Looking for the parents of my grand grandfather Eduard Gross born 17.08.1908 in Krasnoritschka Wolhynia. i cant find anything about them in any database i have look. It looks like he is an Orphan! I knew he gots a few brothers and sister but only know one of them called Hulda Gross but also nozhing to find about her. 

Thanks 

Best regards from Germany 

Roland Gross 
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sun Sep 15 07:26:16 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 08:26:16 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Location of Wirchkufke Wolyn and
 Krooschnitz
In-Reply-To: <D56FE3DCE211445CACAAF4A8B4CB59AA@ownerPC>
Message-ID: <632462203.19636772.1379255176550.JavaMail.root@cds026>

Wirchkufke is almost certainly Wereczufka, alternately known as Perelsianka.  It is located NE of Derazno 50.967076,26.05329 on Google Maps.

Krooschnitz is too badly transliterated for me to find.


Jerry





----- Original Message -----
From: "Marv Geske" <marvin_geske at yahoo.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Cc: "Marvin Geske" <marvin_geske at msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 11:11:22 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Location of Wirchkufke Wolyn and Krooschnitz

I ma trying to locate two towns in Volhynia or Russia that appear in my grandfather Gustav Geske/Jeske?s Passenger list
The names are  Wirchkufke Wolyn and Krooschnitz
Below is the data from the passenger listing
1911
Ancestry.com Baltimore Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 [database on-line].
Name: Gustav Jeske Male, Black smith destination Cleveland Ohio, of Russian citizenship German race, Last residence city Sokolov, had $25, meeting a friend Trude Friede, at 3105 Vega Ave Cleveland Ohio, height 5'5 blond hair brown eyes. Wife: Hulda Jeske back in Wirchkufke Wolyn Russia. Arrival date Apr 23(28) 1911, is 26 Years 0 months old, est birth 1885, born in Russia city Krooschnitz(sp). Departed Bremen Germany on the Frankfurt -Ships Manifest dated Apr 3 1911, arrived in Balitmore Maryland Last  residence Russia. Micro film Roll Number:85 Page: 310
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From lradke at procognis.com  Sun Sep 15 07:56:51 2013
From: lradke at procognis.com (Lynda Radke)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 07:56:51 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] How can I get my DNA tested?
In-Reply-To: <43778.251bc733.3f662721@aol.com>
References: <43778.251bc733.3f662721@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01ceb223$d2ba3060$782e9120$@com>

For those interested, Autosomal DNA testing is offered by three companies:

23 and me -
https://www.23andme.com/?utm_source=extole&utm_medium=referafriend&utm_campa
ign=extole  

FTDNA -
http://www.familytreedna.com/family-finder-compare.aspx?utm_expid=75158416-3
.5utAhPh-QI6DKemUi6Dkxw.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familytreedna.com%2F
%3Fv2%3Dtrue 

Ancestrydna - http://dna.ancestry.com/ 

All three use saliva to perform the test and all are currently $99.
Generally, you spit into the tube in the kit and send it back to the lab in
the provided envelope.  My personal preference is 23 and me, because they
give you health information (such as your risk for breast cancer or
Alzheimer's) in addition to the ancestry information and because their data
base is so much larger.

I also wanted to point out that you do not need to use your real name when
you test.  For children, I use their initials (i.e. BAP, for my Niece).  For
adults who are concerned about privacy I use a first initial and last name
(for example 'R. Radke').  I have tested in my own full name and never had
any issue, but for people who are worried about privacy, knowing that you
can test anonymously is helpful.

No matter which service you use I recommend uploading your data to the free
service, Gedmatch - www.gedmatch.com which will allow you to compare your
DNA with people who have tested using a different service.  

For those who have already tested, my applicable gedmatch IDs are:

N. Radke M211447
R. Radke M184717
G. Radke M083936

Best, 

Lynda

-----Original Message-----
From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] On
Behalf Of BruceB2332 at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:55 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] How can I get my DNA tested?

Hi,
This really interests me, as both of my Grandparents were from German
Volhynia.. How can I do this, and how much does it cost?
Sincerely,
Bruce Braun
 
 
In a message dated 9/14/2013 3:38:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org writes:

Send  Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World  Wide Web, visit
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
or, via email,  send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing  the list at
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When  replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re:  Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..."


If responding to a  digest message, please change your subject line to that 
of the message and  delete all other non-applicable messages.

Today's  Topics:

1. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Linda  Bowen)
2. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)
3. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:  1
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:33:43 -0500
From: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <5234BA17.1060605 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I  have  ordered a   Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great 
grandfather on my  mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find 
information on his  family in these records.
The film is back ordered so it may be awhile  before I get it.
I became involved in my family history because of him.  Jaruschewitz 
sounded  like a very Jewish name to me.

My great  grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a  
settler.
My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a  Catholic 
girl.   I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather  was Catholic.
They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a  nice" 
German girl" with Volhynian roots.

I had my autosomal  DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data 
to GEDmatch and  to FTDNA.
My younger brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
My  autosomal DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that  
included only 7% central Europe.
It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly  1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11%  Volga-ural.

One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA   told me that some 
of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
My brother's  YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in 
Germany and  several of the matches  for his YDNA indicate they may be 
Askenazi  Jews.

Message for Lynda Radke.
One of my  4th cousin  matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from 
Wladymir Wolynsk  area.
Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
There is a Gustav Radke born in  1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
married Olga Hammerling.
Radke is  a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention 
these names  in case something fits.



On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank  wrote:
> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic  churches in 
Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us  know.  Most 
certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they  wanted a church 
connection but because they were mandated to do so by the  government as
long as 
there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the  registration.  Jews 
also registered at Catholic churches until their  synagogues were given 
permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or  so.  Mennonites 
registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they  were not
officially 
recognized as a church.
>
> In Volhynia,  government regulations were more lax, at least until the 
1890s.  Although  parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus 
(literally prayer house)  was a common entity.  Registration was done
through the 
local Lutheran  Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or 
groups of  communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct

funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve  
communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area,  he

would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The  Kantor
did 
not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of  the pages of 
St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality  and
accuracy 
of the records he had received from a Kantor.
> If some  records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is 
not generally  because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather
that 
the Kantor  missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a 
particular period  of time is missing, etc.
>
> German Catholics in Volhynia were  quite rare.  Those there were often in 
the cities, occupied in some  special trade rather than in farming.
>
> Jews in Volhynia were  not large estate owners.  They were not permitted 
to own land in the 19th  century.  They were numerous in number, being part 
of the Pale of  Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. 
tradesmen but for  those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>
> Rumors  of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia 
but I have  never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't 
forget that  Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon
in the 
late  1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German  
surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the  
possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to
you,  
consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that
suggests 
that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that  they 
married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or  ethnicity.
Such 
events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th  century or earlier.
>
> And finally two comments from the other  part of the thread.  The Vistula 
Germans tag is commonly applied to those  Germans who lived along the Wisla 
River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.   As of 1815, this territory became 
part of Russian Poland so after that year  there would be no migration of 
Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They  were already part of it.
>
> And regarding Germans being known as  Russians after 1854 - this was not 
the case.  They always remained German  by ethnicity (of course often 
adapting some local customs and food items along  the way).  But they became

Russian as a nationality based on the  controlling power at the time.  For 
example, in 1921, the Germans in  western Volhynia who had been Russian, now

became  Polish.
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlotte Dubay"  <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  9:45:57 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
>
>
>
> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14,  2013:
>
> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to  Russian Poland 
sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and  Lutheran.
The 
people married each other or people from other German  villages.  It was a 
great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was  Catholic.  One sibling of my

grandmother did this, and the family never  spoke to him again.  He was
totally 
ostracized from the  community.
>
>
> From: Krampetz at aol.com
> To:  hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Friday,  September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  German Prussians vs German Russians
>
> There are two kinds of  Germans from Russia too..
>      Those that were from  Russia (Volhynia) and
>      Those from Poland, who gave  Russia as their home.
>              -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after  
1854(?)
>
> Char writes:
> Yes, prejudice between Catholics  and German Lutherans ran deep. (I 
married a Catholic, and they loved him, but  hated it when I "converted"-
big to 
do on both sides - and this was in early  50s!)
>
> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was  sometimes different - 
out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few  actual parish 
buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at  Heimthal in 
particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in  1894.) So
history 
shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or  baptized USING A
CATHOLIC 
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was  better than none church!
>
> The Catholic church records are said  to be thorough; I don't know 
procedure to get to the records, so I have not  done this search. Should. I
am 
missing protestant baptism records that were  not found at St. Pete's.
>
> I haven't done research to see what  the population was in Volhynia for 
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would  be interesting.  I know that 
Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were  generally business men and ran
almost 
all of the factories in the full  Volhynia region when my ancestors were 
there (100 some factories, and more  than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
statistic). Just a small % of the Jews  were "farmers", (if I remember, like
3%) 
and they were generally owners of  larger estates.
>
> I tried to do some research on local Judaism  because some cousins think 
that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and  perhaps converted in 
Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and  whisperings in the
family 
years ago. But I have had no luck finding  Bonderman(n) history. Even had a 
Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in  his records, but can't seem 
to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near.  Weichman(n) families held 
Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic  doesn't hold that there

would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the  German peasants/farmers -
for 
love and marriage to happen...
>
>  New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German  
Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! 
hmmm.  (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my
German  
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a 
"Russian".  Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they
went.  hah)
>
> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they  hated Poles. The 
Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on  the streets of 
Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were  jailed if
you 
did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in  Bromberg 
then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way  longer
than 
the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early  1860s. We 
assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more  peasant

rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat  itself.
>
>
> Charlotte DuBay
>  hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>



------------------------------

Message:  2
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:29:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jerry Frank  <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <134130857.19443869.1379190572099.JavaMail.root at cds026>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=utf-8

The records will confirm any theories you  have though I don't know if a 
mixed marriage would ever be recorded at a  Jewish synagogue.  An important 
thing to remember is that recording at  authorized churches or synagogues
pre 
WW I was mandated in Russian  Poland.  That same mandate did not exist in 
Volhynia.  

The  sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any other of the other often 
thought  of indicators do not imply Jewish heritage.  I have seen all kinds 
of  reasons given for a supposed Jewish heritage.  A lot of people insist I 
 must be Jewish because of my surname but it simply isn't true.  Now a  
letter written in Yiddish by a family member as reported by Kenneth Browne
in  
a previous message, that may be a different matter.  Here you have some  
kind of physical evidence.  For a typical German, Yiddish might be used  to 
communicate at a market town but not in a letter.  I would not rely on  a
close 
dna match telling you about Jewish connections.  She may be just  as 
misinformed as many others are.  I don't want to discourage your  research.
I 
just don't want others jumping on the same bandwagon based  on vague
notions.

As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with  east European 
connections shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots.  It  however proves
nothing 
in terms of Jewishness.  If it were possible to  check the dna of an
ancestor 
from 1000 years ago, you might find that the  percentage has not changed 
much because other factors have changed a  lot.  

I am not anti-Jewish.  I just find that some people  (not necessarily you) 
have an unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in  some way and good 
research time gets wasted in going in that  direction.

Jerry Frank



----- Original Message  -----
From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:33:43  PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans

I  have  ordered a  Catholic records film for  Ostrog. My second great 
grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm  hoping I might find 
information on his family in these records.
The  film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
I became involved  in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz 
sounded  like a  very Jewish name to me.

My great grandmother's baptismal records  indicates he was Catholic and a 
settler.
My grandmother was horrified  when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic 
girl.   I'm not sure  she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
They ended up not getting  married and in the end he married a nice" 
German girl" with Volhynian  roots.

I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded  my raw data 
to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
My younger brother tested for  YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
My autosomal DNA  really surprised me  when it gave me a mix that 
included only 7% central Europe.
It turns  out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
Scandinavian , 31 %  eastern Europe  and 11% Volga-ural.

One of my best matches on  GEDmatch and also on FTDNA  told me that some 
of my fairly close  matches are Jewish.
My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern  Europe than it is in 
Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA  indicate they may be 
Askenazi Jews.

Message for Lynda Radke.
One  of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from  
Wladymir Wolynsk area.
Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
There is a  Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
married Olga  Hammerling.
Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd  mention 
these names in case something fits.



On 9/14/2013  11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> I have not heard of Lutherans being  registered in Catholic churches in 
Volhynia.  If any readers find such  records, please let us know.  Most 
certainly they did so in Russian  Poland, not because they wanted a church 
connection but because they were  mandated to do so by the government as
long as 
there was no Lutheran church  nearby to accommodate the registration.  Jews 
also registered at Catholic  churches until their synagogues were given 
permission to do registrations, I  think in the 1830s or so.  Mennonites 
registered at Lutheran or Catholic  churches because they were not
officially 
recognized as a  church.
>
> In Volhynia, government regulations were more lax, at  least until the 
1890s.  Although parish buildings were few and far  between, a Betshaus 
(literally prayer house) was a common entity.   Registration was done
through the 
local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher /  teacher) which most communities, or 
groups of communities, had.  He was  authorized to perform baptisms, conduct

funerals, and teach confirmation  class.  Only the pastor could serve 
communion and perform  marriages.  When the pastor came through the area, he
would 
copy the  Kantorate records into the official church book.  The Kantor did 
not  always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of 
St.  Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and
accuracy 
of  the records he had received from a Kantor.
> If some records for a  particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is 
not generally because they are  recorded at a Catholic church but rather
that 
the Kantor missed the entry, the  pastor missed copying it, a book for a 
particular period of time is missing,  etc.
>
> German Catholics in Volhynia were quite rare.  Those  there were often in 
the cities, occupied in some special trade rather than in  farming.
>
> Jews in Volhynia were not large estate owners.   They were not permitted 
to own land in the 19th century.  They were  numerous in number, being part 
of the Pale of Settlement.  I don't know  the percentage of farmers vs. 
tradesmen but for those that were farmers, think  "Fiddler on the Roof".
>
> Rumors of Jewish connections seem to  abound among Germans from Russia 
but I have never seen any verified stories of  such a connection.  Don't 
forget that Jews did not use surnames until  mandated to do so by Napoleon
in the 
late 1700s.  It is far more likely  that they adapted or adopted a German 
surname than that they are your  ancestor.  I am not saying that the 
possibility should never be explored  but if other options remain open to
you, 
consider them first.  I am not  aware of any particular history that
suggests 
that German Lutherans married  Jews, certainly no more so than that they 
married a Catholic, a Pole, a  Ukrainian or any other faith or ethnicity.
Such 
events occurred but they  were very rare in the 19th century or earlier.
>
> And finally two  comments from the other part of the thread.  The Vistula 
Germans tag is  commonly applied to those Germans who lived along the Wisla 
River east of  Thorn and on to Warsaw.  As of 1815, this territory became 
part of  Russian Poland so after that year there would be no migration of 
Vistula  Germans to Russian Poland.  They were already part of it.
>
>  And regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not 
the  case.  They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often 
adapting  some local customs and food items along the way).  But they became

Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time.  For  
example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now

became Polish.
>
>
>  Jerry
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message  -----
> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
>  To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  9:45:57 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
>
>
>
> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14,  2013:
>
> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to  Russian Poland 
sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and  Lutheran.
The 
people married each other or people from other German  villages.  It was a 
great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was  Catholic.  One sibling of my

grandmother did this, and the family never  spoke to him again.  He was
totally 
ostracized from the  community.
>
>
> From: Krampetz at aol.com
> To:  hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Friday,  September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  German Prussians vs German Russians
>
> There are two kinds of  Germans from Russia too..
>      Those that were from  Russia (Volhynia) and
>      Those from Poland, who gave  Russia as their home.
>              -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after  
1854(?)
>
> Char writes:
> Yes, prejudice between Catholics  and German Lutherans ran deep. (I 
married a Catholic, and they loved him, but  hated it when I "converted"-
big to 
do on both sides - and this was in early  50s!)
>
> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was  sometimes different - 
out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few  actual parish 
buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at  Heimthal in 
particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in  1894.) So
history 
shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or  baptized USING A
CATHOLIC 
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was  better than none church!
>
> The Catholic church records are said  to be thorough; I don't know 
procedure to get to the records, so I have not  done this search. Should. I
am 
missing protestant baptism records that were  not found at St. Pete's.
>
> I haven't done research to see what  the population was in Volhynia for 
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would  be interesting.  I know that 
Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were  generally business men and ran
almost 
all of the factories in the full  Volhynia region when my ancestors were 
there (100 some factories, and more  than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
statistic). Just a small % of the Jews  were "farmers", (if I remember, like
3%) 
and they were generally owners of  larger estates.
>
> I tried to do some research on local Judaism  because some cousins think 
that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and  perhaps converted in 
Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and  whisperings in the
family 
years ago. But I have had no luck finding  Bonderman(n) history. Even had a 
Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in  his records, but can't seem 
to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near.  Weichman(n) families held 
Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic  doesn't hold that there

would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the  German peasants/farmers -
for 
love and marriage to happen...
>
>  New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German  
Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! 
hmmm.  (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my
German  
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a 
"Russian".  Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they
went.  hah)
>
> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they  hated Poles. The 
Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on  the streets of 
Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were  jailed if
you 
did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in  Bromberg 
then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way  longer
than 
the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early  1860s. We 
assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more  peasant

rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat  itself.
>
>
> Charlotte DuBay
>  hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>  https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
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>

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------------------------------

Message:  3
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:37:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jerry Frank  <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
To: Kenneth Browne  <kbrowne01518 at gmail.com>
Cc:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic  Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID:  <1367661206.19445937.1379191048112.JavaMail.root at cds026>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=utf-8

The letter written in Yiddish seems to imply  a strong Jewish connection.  
Many Germans would have some knowledge of  Yiddish because of the need to 
communicate in the marketplace.  They  would not normally use it to write a 
letter.  Are you certain it was  Yiddish or could it have been low German?  
There are some  similarities.

I am a little confused about your question regarding  Samuel.  I only see 
an 1865/6 birth described, not one 13 years  earlier.  If Samuel's birth is 
recorded in the Lutheran Church in 1865  and his parent's marriage in the 
Lutheran Church in 1852, where does the  Jewish connection enter in?  The 
marriage record by the way would  indicate if either spouse was anything
other 
than  Lutheran.


Jerry



----- Original Message  -----
From: "Kenneth Browne" <kbrowne01518 at gmail.com>
To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 12:52:43  PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans

On 09/14/2013 12:51 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>    Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were 
given  permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.
My ggfather,  Samuel Lachmann, was born in Sept, 1865 in Rozhysche 
(sp?) and migrated to  the U.S. (Chicago) in 1891. His first wife, my 
ggmother, Alvine Mroch died  young and her origins are still a mystery, 
other than 1900 census which  state
place of birth as "Germany". Samuels place of birth is listed as  
"Russia."

In re: the above citation, is it possible that Samuel's  birth in 1865 
(or 1866) could have been recorded in a Lutheran church,  even if he or 
his parents were Jewish? Seems unlikely except for the  existence of 
letters written by his "sister in law" in 1931 and 1937. The  first 
letter in Yiddish, the second in English with help of a friend  
states...'back to Poland we cannot go because we have no  passport.'

I also have a digital copy of Samuel's parents' marriage in  1852. I 
cannot read the Polish, but I can pick out some of the names and  it 
appears to mention a Samuel Lachmann. Other keywords that I picked out  
of the document (a .TIF file) are Kielce, Antonielow, Gottfried  
Lachmann, Juliana Josefa Wolf, and at the bottom what looks like  
Pastor Kielecki.

As far as I know, Gottfried Lachmann's father was  a Karl Lachmann. So 
if I've deciphered these names correctly, who is this  other Samuel 
Lachmann who existed some 13 years before my ggf's birth? Ah,  the 
mystery of genealogy.

-- 
Kenneth Browne researching:  BROWN(E) LEIGHTON TAYLOR CLOUGH/CLUFF 
LACHMANN RUSSELL NOURSE MORSE  PETTENGILL NOBLE SMALL WOLF MROCH 
LUEDTKE HECKBERT  MANTEI
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------------------------------

Subject:  Digest  Footer

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End  of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 124, Issue  22
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From otto at schienke.com  Sun Sep 15 08:49:14 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 11:49:14 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] How can I get my DNA tested?
In-Reply-To: <00bc01ceb223$d2ba3060$782e9120$@com>
References: <43778.251bc733.3f662721@aol.com>
	<00bc01ceb223$d2ba3060$782e9120$@com>
Message-ID: <45010364-CA1E-46B8-AB75-8DBC1BC81D4B@schienke.com>


On Sep 15, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Lynda Radke wrote:

> For those interested, Autosomal DNA testing is offered by three companies:
> 
> 23 and me -
> 
> All three use saliva to perform the test and all are currently $99.
Yes, but. . . Are they all 1,000,000 + marker tests?
If so. . .
Then how do they compare with many of us at 23andme?. . . Run to a third party stranger with our code. .  Uh, uh! "No, said the little red hen."

So much of the activity regarding attempted DNA research by the uninformed reminds me of my early life on the farm. Chicken butchering time.  One chop and watch them dance the headless dance. . .  Lotta activity but going nowhere. Trust me on this.

> No matter which service you use I recommend uploading your data to the free
> service, Gedmatch - www.gedmatch.com which will allow you to compare your
> DNA with people who have tested using a different service.  

23andme is a global and reputable service, why would I want to "upload" MY DNA code to a third party?  
Nothing is free in this life. 
The third party would now have My code in THEIR databank, now their property to do what THEY want with it. . .

For myself, those who have tested with the 'me-to' autosomal companies are the ones with the problem. 
Dig out the $99. and test with 23andme, then we can compare without passing our code to completely unknown third-party strangers.
"They that do not do it right the first time, always find time to do it over again."  Not my problem.
I do not think 23andMe/Google plan on standing second or third in line. . .

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From okolewe at me.com  Sun Sep 15 10:35:30 2013
From: okolewe at me.com (Ort Kolewe)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:35:30 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] How can I get my DNA tested?
In-Reply-To: <43778.251bc733.3f662721@aol.com>
References: <43778.251bc733.3f662721@aol.com>
Message-ID: <EAF147F6-A70D-47A5-AFAD-3029FC695B69@me.com>

Why do we call Volhynia ...German? It was never a German region ...Polish ,Russian or Ukrainian and French for a little time . Even the Prussian Empire did not claim it. The German groups in that area were orphans even the Lutheran Church was reluctant to send preachers and teachers there.The Germans from Volhynia  were better suited for the Americas...independent attitude.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 14, 2013, at 3:54 PM, BruceB2332 at aol.com wrote:

> Hi,
> This really interests me, as both of my Grandparents were from German  
> Volhynia.. How can I do this, and how much does it cost?
> Sincerely,
> Bruce Braun
> 
> 
> In a message dated 9/14/2013 3:38:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org writes:
> 
> Send  Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
> ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World  Wide Web, visit
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> or, via email,  send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing  the list at
> ger-poland-volhynia-owner at sggee.org
> 
> When  replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re:  Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..."
> 
> 
> If responding to a  digest message, please change your subject line to that 
> of the message and  delete all other non-applicable messages.
> 
> Today's  Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Linda  Bowen)
> 2. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)
> 3. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message:  1
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:33:43 -0500
> From: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
> Message-ID:  <5234BA17.1060605 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> I  have  ordered a   Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great 
> grandfather on my  mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find 
> information on his  family in these records.
> The film is back ordered so it may be awhile  before I get it.
> I became involved in my family history because of him.  Jaruschewitz 
> sounded  like a very Jewish name to me.
> 
> My great  grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a  
> settler.
> My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a  Catholic 
> girl.   I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather  was Catholic.
> They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a  nice" 
> German girl" with Volhynian roots.
> 
> I had my autosomal  DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data 
> to GEDmatch and  to FTDNA.
> My younger brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
> My  autosomal DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that  
> included only 7% central Europe.
> It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly  1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
> Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11%  Volga-ural.
> 
> One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA   told me that some 
> of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
> My brother's  YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in 
> Germany and  several of the matches  for his YDNA indicate they may be 
> Askenazi  Jews.
> 
> Message for Lynda Radke.
> One of my  4th cousin  matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from 
> Wladymir Wolynsk  area.
> Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
> There is a Gustav Radke born in  1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
> married Olga Hammerling.
> Radke is  a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention 
> these names  in case something fits.
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank  wrote:
>> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic  churches in
> Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us  know.  Most 
> certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they  wanted a church 
> connection but because they were mandated to do so by the  government as long as 
> there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the  registration.  Jews 
> also registered at Catholic churches until their  synagogues were given 
> permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or  so.  Mennonites 
> registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they  were not officially 
> recognized as a church.
>> 
>> In Volhynia,  government regulations were more lax, at least until the
> 1890s.  Although  parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus 
> (literally prayer house)  was a common entity.  Registration was done through the 
> local Lutheran  Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or 
> groups of  communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct  
> funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve  
> communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area,  he 
> would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The  Kantor did 
> not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of  the pages of 
> St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality  and accuracy 
> of the records he had received from a Kantor.
>> If some  records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is
> not generally  because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that 
> the Kantor  missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a 
> particular period  of time is missing, etc.
>> 
>> German Catholics in Volhynia were  quite rare.  Those there were often in 
> the cities, occupied in some  special trade rather than in farming.
>> 
>> Jews in Volhynia were  not large estate owners.  They were not permitted
> to own land in the 19th  century.  They were numerous in number, being part 
> of the Pale of  Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. 
> tradesmen but for  those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>> 
>> Rumors  of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia
> but I have  never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't 
> forget that  Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in the 
> late  1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German  
> surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the  
> possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you,  
> consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that  suggests 
> that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that  they 
> married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or  ethnicity.  Such 
> events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th  century or earlier.
>> 
>> And finally two comments from the other  part of the thread.  The Vistula 
> Germans tag is commonly applied to those  Germans who lived along the Wisla 
> River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.   As of 1815, this territory became 
> part of Russian Poland so after that year  there would be no migration of 
> Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They  were already part of it.
>> 
>> And regarding Germans being known as  Russians after 1854 - this was not
> the case.  They always remained German  by ethnicity (of course often 
> adapting some local customs and food items along  the way).  But they became 
> Russian as a nationality based on the  controlling power at the time.  For 
> example, in 1921, the Germans in  western Volhynia who had been Russian, now 
> became  Polish.
>> 
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Charlotte Dubay"  <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
>> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  9:45:57 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14,  2013:
>> 
>> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to  Russian Poland
> sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and  Lutheran.  The 
> people married each other or people from other German  villages.  It was a 
> great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was  Catholic.  One sibling of my 
> grandmother did this, and the family never  spoke to him again.  He was totally 
> ostracized from the  community.
>> 
>> 
>> From: Krampetz at aol.com
>> To:  hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Friday,  September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  German Prussians vs German Russians
>> 
>> There are two kinds of  Germans from Russia too..
>>     Those that were from  Russia (Volhynia) and
>>     Those from Poland, who gave  Russia as their home.
>>             -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after  
> 1854(?)
>> 
>> Char writes:
>> Yes, prejudice between Catholics  and German Lutherans ran deep. (I
> married a Catholic, and they loved him, but  hated it when I "converted"- big to 
> do on both sides - and this was in early  50s!)
>> 
>> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was  sometimes different -
> out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few  actual parish 
> buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at  Heimthal in 
> particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in  1894.) So history 
> shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or  baptized USING A CATHOLIC 
> CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was  better than none church!
>> 
>> The Catholic church records are said  to be thorough; I don't know
> procedure to get to the records, so I have not  done this search. Should. I am 
> missing protestant baptism records that were  not found at St. Pete's.
>> 
>> I haven't done research to see what  the population was in Volhynia for
> Catholics. Should do that, too. That would  be interesting.  I know that 
> Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were  generally business men and ran almost 
> all of the factories in the full  Volhynia region when my ancestors were 
> there (100 some factories, and more  than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
> statistic). Just a small % of the Jews  were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) 
> and they were generally owners of  larger estates.
>> 
>> I tried to do some research on local Judaism  because some cousins think
> that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and  perhaps converted in 
> Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and  whisperings in the family 
> years ago. But I have had no luck finding  Bonderman(n) history. Even had a 
> Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in  his records, but can't seem 
> to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near.  Weichman(n) families held 
> Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic  doesn't hold that there 
> would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the  German peasants/farmers - for 
> love and marriage to happen...
>> 
>> New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German  
> Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! 
> hmmm.  (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German  
> Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a 
> "Russian".  Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went.  hah)
>> 
>> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they  hated Poles. The
> Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on  the streets of 
> Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were  jailed if you 
> did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in  Bromberg 
> then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way  longer than 
> the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early  1860s. We 
> assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more  peasant 
> rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat  itself.
>> 
>> 
>> Charlotte DuBay
>> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message:  2
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:29:32 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Jerry Frank  <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
> To: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
> Message-ID:  <134130857.19443869.1379190572099.JavaMail.root at cds026>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> The records will confirm any theories you  have though I don't know if a 
> mixed marriage would ever be recorded at a  Jewish synagogue.  An important 
> thing to remember is that recording at  authorized churches or synagogues pre 
> WW I was mandated in Russian  Poland.  That same mandate did not exist in 
> Volhynia.  
> 
> The  sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any other of the other often 
> thought  of indicators do not imply Jewish heritage.  I have seen all kinds 
> of  reasons given for a supposed Jewish heritage.  A lot of people insist I 
> must be Jewish because of my surname but it simply isn't true.  Now a  
> letter written in Yiddish by a family member as reported by Kenneth Browne in  
> a previous message, that may be a different matter.  Here you have some  
> kind of physical evidence.  For a typical German, Yiddish might be used  to 
> communicate at a market town but not in a letter.  I would not rely on  a close 
> dna match telling you about Jewish connections.  She may be just  as 
> misinformed as many others are.  I don't want to discourage your  research.  I 
> just don't want others jumping on the same bandwagon based  on vague notions.
> 
> As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with  east European 
> connections shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots.  It  however proves nothing 
> in terms of Jewishness.  If it were possible to  check the dna of an ancestor 
> from 1000 years ago, you might find that the  percentage has not changed 
> much because other factors have changed a  lot.  
> 
> I am not anti-Jewish.  I just find that some people  (not necessarily you) 
> have an unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in  some way and good 
> research time gets wasted in going in that  direction.
> 
> Jerry Frank
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message  -----
> From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:33:43  PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
> 
> I  have  ordered a  Catholic records film for  Ostrog. My second great 
> grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm  hoping I might find 
> information on his family in these records.
> The  film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
> I became involved  in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz 
> sounded  like a  very Jewish name to me.
> 
> My great grandmother's baptismal records  indicates he was Catholic and a 
> settler.
> My grandmother was horrified  when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic 
> girl.   I'm not sure  she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
> They ended up not getting  married and in the end he married a nice" 
> German girl" with Volhynian  roots.
> 
> I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded  my raw data 
> to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
> My younger brother tested for  YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
> My autosomal DNA  really surprised me  when it gave me a mix that 
> included only 7% central Europe.
> It turns  out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
> Scandinavian , 31 %  eastern Europe  and 11% Volga-ural.
> 
> One of my best matches on  GEDmatch and also on FTDNA  told me that some 
> of my fairly close  matches are Jewish.
> My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern  Europe than it is in 
> Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA  indicate they may be 
> Askenazi Jews.
> 
> Message for Lynda Radke.
> One  of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from  
> Wladymir Wolynsk area.
> Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
> There is a  Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
> married Olga  Hammerling.
> Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd  mention 
> these names in case something fits.
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/14/2013  11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>> I have not heard of Lutherans being  registered in Catholic churches in
> Volhynia.  If any readers find such  records, please let us know.  Most 
> certainly they did so in Russian  Poland, not because they wanted a church 
> connection but because they were  mandated to do so by the government as long as 
> there was no Lutheran church  nearby to


From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sun Sep 15 10:38:40 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:38:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] pre and post pages in censuses hold answers
Message-ID: <8D080518D00181C-1E6C-234B0@webmail-d241.sysops.aol.com>


Lois writes:
My relatives had homesteaded in Tyndall, Bon Homme, Dakota Territory from 
1873-1885 (this was in the southern part of what is now South Dakota) and moved 
to Eureka.? Two children were born there in 1885 and 1888.? Their oldest 
daughter was married in Eureka in 1889 in her father's house.? The whole family, 
including the newly married, then moved, almost immediately,?to Swanwick, Perry, 
Illinois.? I am surmising that they, not being GR, they did not "fit in".? I 
often wonder why they went to Illinois.? I have found no other relatives there.

Yes,Lois, wouldn't it have been wonderful if they would have written down in a long letter WHY they did
some of the things that they did? Re: relocating to Illinois: maybe you could check their SD neighbors on 
earlier census reports (if they hit a SD census year) to see if there are any familiar names - 
who also relocated to IL. SD took censuses every five years, so you might see something...Also, I have found 
related families on  the census pages both before and after the actual page that held my family's name. It takes some
time, but at our age all we have is time! hah. (And yes, it could be that the German spirit in the Dakotahs was 
overwhelming...but then the question must be asked: why did they go there initially?) Good luck in your search.

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From randy_svenson at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 15 12:01:27 2013
From: randy_svenson at yahoo.com (Randy Svenson)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 12:01:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] pre and post pages in censuses hold
	answers
In-Reply-To: <8D080518D00181C-1E6C-234B0@webmail-d241.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D080518D00181C-1E6C-234B0@webmail-d241.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1379271687.79982.YahooMailNeo@web162603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The Homestead Act of 1862 opened up the western USA.? The Act was enhanced in about 1872 with the Timber Culture Act.? At the same time Canada was going through the Dominion Lands Act.? If the family was not originally farming types this may explain their change of work and where they lived.? Free land.
?
Also in the 1870s was the Long Depression.? Very hard on North America, Western Europe, and very, very?difficult for the British.? The Long Depression lasted until about 1879.? Small farmers who at the time were often subsistence farmers would be able to make it through the worst of times as long as crops grew,?animals lived, and the creditors did not call their loans.? Many farms were recalled for debt as the farm was often the collateral.? The Bonanza Farms (as in the Dalrymple Farm) at this time were splitting and decreasing in size.? That may have cut back on job availability in Minnesota and the Red River Valley.
?
If the loans were called, more times than not, the terms could not be met.? Time to move out.? Many would move to areas where relatives or friends that had went through the same hardships had moved to.? There is a bit of a "herd mentality" starting with the Germanic move to Volhynia; followed by the move to North America; and finally with different moves within North America.

Randy Svenson
?
Searching: Pohl, Paetsch, Nixdorf.
 

________________________________
 From: Charlotte Dubay <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org 
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 1:38 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] pre and post pages in censuses hold answers
  


Lois writes:
My relatives had homesteaded in Tyndall, Bon Homme, Dakota Territory from 
1873-1885 (this was in the southern part of what is now South Dakota) and moved 
to Eureka.? Two children were born there in 1885 and 1888.? Their oldest 
daughter was married in Eureka in 1889 in her father's house.? The whole family, 
including the newly married, then moved, almost immediately,?to Swanwick, Perry, 
Illinois.? I am surmising that they, not being GR, they did not "fit in".? I 
often wonder why they went to Illinois.? I have found no other relatives there.

Yes,Lois, wouldn't it have been wonderful if they would have written down in a long letter WHY they did
some of the things that they did? Re: relocating to Illinois: maybe you could check their SD neighbors on 
earlier census reports (if they hit a SD census year) to see if there are any familiar names - 
who also relocated to IL. SD took censuses every five years, so you might see something...Also, I have found 
related families on? the census pages both before and after the actual page that held my family's name. It takes some
time, but at our age all we have is time! hah. (And yes, it could be that the German spirit in the Dakotahs was 
overwhelming...but then the question must be asked: why did they go there initially?) Good luck in your search.

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

From natalie.nieminen at gmail.com  Sun Sep 15 12:32:14 2013
From: natalie.nieminen at gmail.com (Natalie Nieminen)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 15:32:14 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Czechs Moving to Lodz Area
Message-ID: <CALLz9QkDZw8HvNOz0wps1YOjHuq=cQQKwXFOgFeoY_Q24Rahfw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm very interested in something John Marsch recently wrote regarding
marriages at Trinity - Lodz between Catholics and Lutherans:

"Another interesting  tid-bit that I noticed, many of the Catholic men had
come to Lodz from Tschechei (now the Czech Republic), likely to work in the
textile industry for which Lodz was famous at the time."

Does anyone know more about those who left "Tschechei" to come to Lodz?
When did they leave?  Did they only leave to seek jobs in the growing
textile industry in Lodz, or was there another reason?  If there were
Catholics who married in Lutheran churches, does that mean they converted
to Lutheranism?

Natalie


From listen at familie-leyer.de  Sun Sep 15 12:33:10 2013
From: listen at familie-leyer.de (Andreas Leyer)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 21:33:10 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans >
	Lachmann
In-Reply-To: <5234B07B.6020008@gmail.com>
References: <335597517.19377179.1379177508477.JavaMail.root@cds026>
	<5234B07B.6020008@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AB030518A04420BB673409D97118FDD@Medion>

Hello Kenneth,

also my ancestors came over Antoniel?w / Kielce to Volhynia. I spend a lot
of time looking into the churchbooks of Kielce. Before there were Lutheran
church records till 1838 they went to the catholic church in Lopuszno.

Therefore, I can also say something about the Lachmann family to you.

Lachmann, Matth?us, * ~ 1778, + Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 29.05.1834
oo Anna Rosine Jakubowski(also Jankowski)

childs
1. Lachmann, Beate, * ~ 1795
oo Lopuszno / Kielce / Polen 25.01.1823 
Christian Deutschmann, * ~ 1795

2. Lachmann, Johann Karl, * Jutrosin Preussen 16.02.1808
oo I. Lopuszno / Kielce / Polen 17.01.1832 Luise L?dtke, II. Anna Dorothea
Z?llmer (Celmer)
L?dtke, Luise, * Olendrach piotrkowskich Gm. Trzepnicy pow Piotrkow ~ 1808,
+ Antonielow / Kielce / Polen 11.03.1862
Lt. Heiratseintrag Geburtsort "Miedzychowie Starych Preussen"(also Birnbaum)
Z?llmer (Celmer), Anna Dorothea, * Antonielow / Kielce / Polen 06.02.1803
(she was a sister of my greatgreatgreatgrandfather)

3. Lachmann, Gottlieb, * Jutroszim Panitwa? Pruskim ~ 1812
oo Lopuszno 16.11.1835 Anna Dorothea Reimann, Reimann, Anna Dorothea, * ~
1817

4. Lachmann, Johann Daniel, * ~ 1815
oo Kielce / Polen 01.03.1840 L?dtke, Anna Henrietta, * ~ 1821

5. Lachmann, Samuel, * ~ 1818, + Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 06.01.1823

6. Lachmann, Kristiane, * ~ 1819, + Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 18.10.1822

7. Lachmann, Gottfried Gottlob, * Josefin / Kielce / Polen 26.07.1822, +
Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 26.07.1823

Number 2 > Johann Karl Lachmann oo Luise L?dtke had 8 childs. First child
was 

Lachmann, Johann Gottfried, * Olszciska Gm. Lopuszno / Kielce / Polen
12.11.1832
oo Kielce / Polen 02.02.1852 
Wolf, Julianna Josefa, * Kajetanovic Gm. Mokra 04.03.1833

Her parents are

Wolf, Kristian, * Hirschbergus Szlasku  Preussen ~ 1799, + Antonielow /
Kielce / Polen 21.12.1856
oo Thonn, Julianna, * ~ 1801
In the inhabitantsbook of Kielce ist her familyname Celmer.

The parents of Kristian Wolf are

Wolf, Friedrich oo Katharina, her familyname is unknown.

In the marriage document of Gottfried Lachmann oo Julianna Josefa Wolf is
mentioned a Samuel Lachmann 23 y.(born ~ 1829) from Skatki. He was one of
the attestors, probably related, but not the son. 

Anna Wilhelmina Richter, a descendant in the Luedtke family above, appears
later and married a Samuel Lachmann. I have no further information on him,
but she was born about 1828, so he could be the Samuel Lachmann in the
marriage document.

Hope, you get new information. If you are interested, I can send you a
excel-file with Lachmann birth, death and marriage of Kielce and Lopuszno.

Regards

Andreas

www.familie-leyer.de 


> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] Im
> Auftrag von Kenneth Browne
> Gesendet: Samstag, 14. September 2013 20:53
> An: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Betreff: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
> 
> On 09/14/2013 12:51 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> >   Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were
> given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.
> My ggfather, Samuel Lachmann, was born in Sept, 1865 in Rozhysche
> (sp?) and migrated to the U.S. (Chicago) in 1891. His first wife, my
> ggmother, Alvine Mroch died young and her origins are still a mystery,
> other than 1900 census which state
> place of birth as "Germany". Samuels place of birth is listed as
> "Russia."
> 
> In re: the above citation, is it possible that Samuel's birth in 1865
> (or 1866) could have been recorded in a Lutheran church, even if he or
> his parents were Jewish? Seems unlikely except for the existence of
> letters written by his "sister in law" in 1931 and 1937. The first
> letter in Yiddish, the second in English with help of a friend
> states...'back to Poland we cannot go because we have no passport.'
> 
> I also have a digital copy of Samuel's parents' marriage in 1852. I
> cannot read the Polish, but I can pick out some of the names and it
> appears to mention a Samuel Lachmann. Other keywords that I picked out
> of the document (a .TIF file) are Kielce, Antonielow, Gottfried
> Lachmann, Juliana Josefa Wolf, and at the bottom what looks like
> Pastor Kielecki.
> 
> As far as I know, Gottfried Lachmann's father was a Karl Lachmann. So
> if I've deciphered these names correctly, who is this other Samuel
> Lachmann who existed some 13 years before my ggf's birth? Ah, the
> mystery of genealogy.
> 
> --
> Kenneth Browne researching: BROWN(E) LEIGHTON TAYLOR CLOUGH/CLUFF
> LACHMANN RUSSELL NOURSE MORSE PETTENGILL NOBLE SMALL WOLF MROCH
> LUEDTKE HECKBERT MANTEI
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia





From ggomes at soundviewnet.com  Sun Sep 15 12:48:41 2013
From: ggomes at soundviewnet.com (Gary Gomes)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:48:41 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Variations of Surnames - Schindler
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1379271600.15034.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1379271600.15034.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <001501ceb24c$94fb0320$bef10960$@com>

My extended family group migrated from the Lutsk to Lublin region to Canada
between 1890 and 1915.  Family names include Lange, Pries, Gurel and
Schindler and I have found numerous intermarriages among the families.

I have found the SGGEE surname equivalence guide very useful as I search
among records of different locales and times, but I could use a little more
help (I have zero language skills in German, Polis or Russian):

Is there any likelihood that Schinschke is some variation of Schindler?
There is a 1886 record of marriage bans between my great grandmother
Caroline Gurel (later Pries) and an Adolf Heinrich Schinschke; I can find no
further records of Adolf, but wonder if he might be part of the
SchindlerSchindel/Schendel family.


Gary Gomes




From paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de  Sun Sep 15 13:34:04 2013
From: paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de (Paul Rakow)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 22:34:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Acestors Krasnoritschka
In-Reply-To: <mailman.51.1379257042.6299.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.51.1379257042.6299.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1309152205450.30123@pub1.ifh.de>


  Hallo Roland!

       As Jerry says, the original birth records are still in
  Zhitomir, and not easy to see.

       When did the Gross family come to Germany? If they came
  in the War years (1944), there may be files about the family
  genealogy that we can tell you about.

      I am very interested in the village Krasnoritschka.
  A relative of mine (Hugo Gruenke) was the school director
  there around 1935, I am trying to find out more about him.

                Paul Rakow
-----

     Hallo Roland!

          Wann ist die Familie Gross zuruckgewandert?  Falls
  es um Kriegsende war, wird es wahrscheinlich Einwanderungs-
  und Einbuergerungsakten noch geben, mit viele Familiengeschichte
  drin enthalten.

       Ich selbst habe eine Interresse in Krasnoritschka.
  Ein Vetter meines Mutters war dort Lehrer und Schuldirector
  um 1935. Gibt's in Deine Familie Geschichten ueber
  Krasnoritschka zu Sowietische Zeiten?

              MfG

                   Paul Rakow

---
  Jerry Frank <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca> wrote: 
>
> Krasnoritschka as you probably know is in the Zhitomir Parish.  You will not find any online databases that contain info for that time frame.
>
> Some post 1900 church records are available in Zhitomir.  SGGEE does not have copies of these records but is currently working with local people to obtain extractions.  Unfortunately this is a long term project and it may be another year or more before the results are available.
>
> Jerry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roland Gross" <rolands_gross at web.de>
>>
>> Hello, I am Looking for the parents of my grand grandfather 
>> Eduard Gross born 17.08.1908 in Krasnoritschka Wolhynia. i cant
>>  find anything about them in any database i have look. It
>>  looks like he is an Orphan! I knew he gots a few brothers
>>  and sister but only know one of them called Hulda Gross but
>>  also nozhing to find about her.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Best regards from Germany
>>
> Roland Gross
> _______________________________________________


From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sun Sep 15 15:05:37 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 18:05:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] farmers got land grants and tree grants
Message-ID: <8D08076D771FF76-18D4-24A47@webmail-d213.sysops.aol.com>


Randy wrote:

The Homestead Act of 1862 opened up the western USA.  The Act was enhanced in about 1872 with the Timber Culture Act.  At the same time Canada was going through the Dominion Lands Act.  If the family was not originally farming types this may explain their change of work and where they lived.  Free land.
 
Also in the 1870s was the Long Depression.

Yes, Randy, all four of my lines were farmers. But my Russian ggrandfather and his children got free land in both Canada AND America. It seems like they lived like gypsies most of their lives: From SD, 4 sons and a daughter went with this father to SK Canada, and homesteaded there. The children later returned and homesteaded in America! They also got extra land from the "tree" grants that were available for a few years. Plant the trees and you got what, 160 more acres? Something like that. My grandmas and all the other kids would get out and plant row after row of trees. (they made many "wind rows" that way.) The tree grant wasn't offered for too many years, but homestead land was well into the mid 1900s. 

Three grgrandpas didn't file first papers, so the kids had to individually file for citizenship to get land. My grandma filed as a single woman both in Canada - where she got a land grant - and later changing her naturalization to America and getting a land grant in ND. She sold her Canadian land to a brother for $1600. Then she later married an American born man. (Her sisters just married American born men. hah) But, of course, they all kept their lands in both countries. They vagabonded for years before they settled. And even then the Russian-German men left the homesteads for months while gambling and horse trading to the west - while Mama and children did the farm chores! My Russian-German greatgrandfather, in 1920 as an old man, finally renounced Canada and became an American citizen...quite a family. (The families who stayed on the homesteads, are now all pretty well-to-do because of the land. We who went to the cities? Not so good!) 


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From gpvjem at sasktel.net  Sun Sep 15 15:19:14 2013
From: gpvjem at sasktel.net (gpvjem)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 16:19:14 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Czechs Moving to Lodz Area
References: <CALLz9QkDZw8HvNOz0wps1YOjHuq=cQQKwXFOgFeoY_Q24Rahfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C177EB162EF48159E64EC4A07F6C5C2@Marsh>

    More questions seem to arise than are answered in "old" church records.  I can not answer your questions specifically.  All I can tell you that as I recall most of the Catholic men, if not all, had surnames that indicated they were of German descent.  Without going into a detailed history, suffice to say  there were large numbers of ethnic Germans in Tschechei for centuries.  That was the excuse Hitler used to invade Czechoslokia in 1938.

    The full translations of the Lodz church records gave no indication why men from Tschechei came to Lodz.  Usually people move from place to place for economic reasons and Lodz was in a modest "boom" during the mid 1850s.  BTW the full translations I used to prepare the Legacy file are now in the SGGEE library in Calgary. 

    As I mentioned previously, it would be interesting to examine the Catholic church records for Lodz  for the period 1825 to 1850 to see how many similar Czech migrants were recorded, and to whom they were married etc.

John Marsch 
In still sunny Saskatchewan

------------------------------


  I'm very interested in something John Marsch recently wrote regarding
  marriages at Trinity - Lodz between Catholics and Lutherans:

  "Another interesting  tid-bit that I noticed, many of the Catholic men had
  come to Lodz from Tschechei (now the Czech Republic), likely to work in the
  textile industry for which Lodz was famous at the time."

  Does anyone know more about those who left "Tschechei" to come to Lodz?
  When did they leave?  Did they only leave to seek jobs in the growing
  textile industry in Lodz, or was there another reason?  If there were
  Catholics who married in Lutheran churches, does that mean they converted
  to Lutheranism?

  Natalie
  _______________________________________________


From garyw555 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 15 15:30:50 2013
From: garyw555 at gmail.com (Gary Warner)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 15:30:50 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Variations of Surnames - Schindler
In-Reply-To: <001501ceb24c$94fb0320$bef10960$@com>
References: <mailman.1.1379271600.15034.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
	<001501ceb24c$94fb0320$bef10960$@com>
Message-ID: <5236351A.8000403@gmail.com>

Gary,

Schinske and Schindler and Schindel are all different German names, so 
far as I know.   The Lutheran pastors were all Germans, and they would  
almost always record a German name properly, unless they did not hear 
the name correctly, or later made the entry incorrectly from notes that 
they took at the time of the event.

If the record was recorded in the Catholic parish, however, the priests 
were always Poles who generally did not speak German, and they may or 
may not have recorded the German names correctly, and they may or may 
not have translated the German name into a Polish one.   Herein lies 
another problem with a Polish translation of a name, because several 
different German names with the same beginning might get translated into 
the same Polish surname.

If the record you are looking at seems to fit in all respects other than 
the surname, then look more closely at the record.   For instance, does 
the spouse or mother have the name of a know relative, are the witnesses 
names that you recognize, asnd is the village the same as you know where 
your family lived?  Recording mistakes were made, and it sometimes takes 
some sleuthing to figure out what is correct.

Gary Warner
SGGEE Database Manager

On 9/15/2013 12:48 PM, Gary Gomes wrote:
> My extended family group migrated from the Lutsk to Lublin region to Canada
> between 1890 and 1915.  Family names include Lange, Pries, Gurel and
> Schindler and I have found numerous intermarriages among the families.
>
> I have found the SGGEE surname equivalence guide very useful as I search
> among records of different locales and times, but I could use a little more
> help (I have zero language skills in German, Polis or Russian):
>
> Is there any likelihood that Schinschke is some variation of Schindler?
> There is a 1886 record of marriage bans between my great grandmother
> Caroline Gurel (later Pries) and an Adolf Heinrich Schinschke; I can find no
> further records of Adolf, but wonder if he might be part of the
> SchindlerSchindel/Schendel family.
>
>
> Gary Gomes
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sun Sep 15 15:58:08 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 18:58:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] tombstone translations
Message-ID: <8D0807E2DAC23A1-18D4-24EF3@webmail-d213.sysops.aol.com>



RE: the tombstone in South Dakota. 
Jerry, forgive my indulgence for such a long post, but I thought the readers would enjoy the translations. Thank you ALL who helped. The words are sad?but thank you. If I accidentally 
didn?t post your response, please do so. It will probably be interesting to all, Char.


A few extra words but unfortunately not the whole thing. ,,,Jerry 

Charlotte, 
In addition to several web translators - 
There are many free places on the internet where you can store a copy of your 
photo, then point to the URL for anyone reading your post. 
There are also free photo editors on the internet that can not only enlarge, 
but enhance the contrast - which you likely need. 
If those ideas don't work for you, send it to me. I don't know if I can 
translate what I'd find, but I'll return the best photo enhancement I can 
Bob K 

Hi Charlotte,
Weinend legen wir dich nieder in dein stilles Schlafgemach. Niemals kehrst du zu uns wieder. 
Darum weinen wir dir nach. Doch es schl?gt f?r uns die Stunde, wo wir dich einst wiedersehen.
It is interesting, that there are two mistakes:
kehrst is written kerst
schl?gt is written schl?cht
Do you need a translation into English?
Best wishes
Jimmy

Charlotte
Maybe Jerry Frank or Sigrid Pohl can translate the text for you.
The inscription reads in German:
HERMAN L. HOSER
GEB. 12. OKT. 1845
GEST. 14. DEC. 1925
LOUISA K. SEINE FRAU
GEB. 24. DEC. 1853
GEST. 07. OKT. 1910
Weinend legen wir Dich wieder in dein stilles Schlafgemach. Niemals kerst du zu uns wieder. Darum weinen wir dir nach. Wach es schl?ckt f?r uns die Stunde bis wir dich einst wieder sehen.
Correct German:
Weinend legen wir Dich wieder in dein stilles Schlafgemach. Niemals kehrst du zu uns zur?ck. Darum weinen wir dir nach. Wache, es schl?gt f?r uns die Stunde bis wir dich einst wieder sehen.
Regards
Ursula

?
Here is the info on births and deaths (you probably have this figured out): 
Herman L. Hoser 
born October 12, 1845 
died December 14, 1925 
Louisa A. 
his wife 
born December 24, 1853 
died October 7, 1910 
The Text (both in German and in English): 
Weinend legen wir dich nieder in dein 
stilles Schlafgemach. Niemals kehrst du 
zu uns wieder. Darum weinen wir dir 
nach. Doch es schl?gt f?r uns die Stunde, 
wo wir dich einst wieder sehen. 
Crying, we lay you down in your 
quiet sleeping chamber. Never will you 
return to us again. Therefore, we cry for 
you. But the bell tolls for us, 
where we will see you once again.
Linda

The Last line will do it. Enough here for you to put it together. 
Someone had a sense of culture and art. . . Beautiful choice! 
I think I'd simply state for myself, "I'd rather be walking." 
"Einmal, da schl?gt f?r uns die Stunde. . ." Einmal komm ich zu dir" 
In time, strikes for us the hour. . . In time will I come to you. 
La Paloma. German version spinoff ?
La Paloma Adieu (transl.)
. . . Otto

This is the German as I can decipher it:
Weinend legen wir dich nieder in dein 
stilles Schlafgemach. Niemals kerst (spelling should be "kehrst") du 
zu uns wieder. Darum weinen wir dir 
auch nach. Doch es schl?cht (spellinng should be "schl?gt") f?r uns die Stunde 
wo wir dich wieder sehen.
Translation:
With weeping lay we you down into your
silent bed chamber. You will never return to us again. Therefore, we weep for you.
The hour is coming for us when we shall see you again.
George

Here's what I think I see: Weinend legen wir dich nieder in dein stille Schlafgemach. Niemals kerst du zu uns wieder. Darum weinen wir dir nach. Nach es schl?cht f?r uns die stunde wo wir dich einst wieder sehen.
Translation: In tears we lay you down in your quiet bedroom. Never will you return to us. Therefore we mourn you. After the hour strikes for us, we will see you once again
Problems: "kerst" must be a misspelling of "kehrst" (from "kehren"--to turn). The last sentence has three problem words, Nach, schl?cht, and wo. I'm not sure about either of them. Schl?cht must be a misspelling of schl?gt (schlagen--to strike). If it's not, then I don't know what it is. And "wo" is very unclear--I'm just guessing. So my translation of the last sentence may not be exactly right, but you get the idea.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a rubbing of that stone?
Hope this helps...
Dick



Dick's rhetorical question says so much: 
WOULDN'T IT BE NICE TO HAVE A RUBBING OF THAT STONE?
Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From siegschewe at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 15 16:09:27 2013
From: siegschewe at hotmail.com (Sieg Schewe)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 17:09:27 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ostrog
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP141F8FE43FDDCA84A1B9A4ED8250@phx.gbl>

Is Ostrog & Ostroh the same ?

Sent from my iPad Sieg Schewe



From otto at schienke.com  Sun Sep 15 16:14:04 2013
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 19:14:04 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Gravestone -I HAVE IT
Message-ID: <E09F8E03-56FE-43F9-BAC4-87E240FE9C66@schienke.com>

I would like to know the dichter/poet of it.  Some of the lines have been incorporated into much.

Ostfriesische poem = East Frisian poem .  .. 
I should have known, first a Frisian  language, now this. 
We may still end up as cousins!


Weinend legen wir Dich nieder,
In Dein stilles Schlafgemach;
Niemals lehrst Du zu und wieder -
Darum weinen wir dir nach.
Doch es schl?gt f?r uns die Stunde,
Wo wir Dich einst wiedersehen,
Wenn vereint zum sch?nsten Bunde
Wir vor Gottes Throne stehen.

Weeping we lay you low
In your quiet chamber
never to teach again
Therefore we cry to you
But it suggests to us the hour
Where we see you once again
When combining the finest league
We stand before God's throne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Frisia

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
                _____________________________________
                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."



From paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de  Sun Sep 15 16:23:41 2013
From: paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de (Paul Rakow)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 01:23:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Acestors Krasnoritschka
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1309152205450.30123@pub1.ifh.de>
References: <mailman.51.1379257042.6299.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1309152205450.30123@pub1.ifh.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1309160038440.23605@pub5.ifh.de>


  Hello Roland,

        Here is your family in the EWZ files
  (Einwanderungzentralstelle).

  This gives
  Name: Birthdate and Birthplace: Microfilm reference for
  microfilms in the USA National Archives.

  Gross, Eduard      17 Aug 1908 Krasnoretschka, Geb. Shitomir
                     A3342-EWZ50-C033 1034

  Gross, Natalie geb Moor    11 Apr 1911 Krasnoretschka, Geb. Shitomir
                     A3342-EWZ50-C033 1034


  Gross, Martin      26 Jan 1933 Krasnoretschka, Geb. Shitomir
                     A3342-EWZ50-C033 1034

  Gross, Erna        18 May 1938 Krasnoretschka, Geb. Shitomir
                     A3342-EWZ50-C033 1034

  Gross, Waldemar    8 Jul 1936 Krasnoretschka, Geb. Shitomir
                     A3342-EWZ50-C033 1034

-----

   These may also be relations:

  Dier, Olga  geb Gross    25 Mar 1899 Krasnoritschka, Geb. Shitomir
                     A3342-EWZ50-B007 2946


------

  Dombrowski, Renate  geb Gross  16 Jul 1922 Krasno Retschka
                        A3342EWZ50-B015 2172

  Dombrowski, Renate  geb Gross  16 Jul 1922 Shitomir
                        A3342EWZ50-B015 1928

  (This person appears in two different files on this
  microfilm).

----

  I found these at

  http://www.odessa3.org/search.html

   That index is not complete, you will probably find more
  Gross families from Krasnaritschka if you look in the
  microfilm index.

       Here are two sites that tell you about the EWZ microfilms:

     www.volhynia.com/res-ewz.html

     www.galiziengermandescendants.org/BDC_help.htm

   You can borrow some of the films from the Mormon
  family history centres - they have them in the big cities
  in Germany, other films you have to get from the National
  Archives.

        Have you already seen these films? They have a lot
  of family information, they might tell you who Eduard's
  parents and maybe even grandparents were.

       If you need help, there are people on the SGGEE
  list who have a lot of experience with these files,

               Paul


>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Roland Gross" <rolands_gross at web.de>
>>> 
>>> Hello, I am Looking for the parents of my grand grandfather Eduard Gross 
>>> born 17.08.1908 in Krasnoritschka Wolhynia. i cant
>>>  find anything about them in any database i have look. It
>>>  looks like he is an Orphan! I knew he gots a few brothers
>>>  and sister but only know one of them called Hulda Gross but
>>>  also nozhing to find about her.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Best regards from Germany
>>> 
>> Roland Gross
>> _______________________________________________
>


From natalie.nieminen at gmail.com  Sun Sep 15 17:37:24 2013
From: natalie.nieminen at gmail.com (Natalie Nieminen)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 20:37:24 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Czechs Moving to Lodz Area
In-Reply-To: <5C177EB162EF48159E64EC4A07F6C5C2@Marsh>
References: <CALLz9QkDZw8HvNOz0wps1YOjHuq=cQQKwXFOgFeoY_Q24Rahfw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5C177EB162EF48159E64EC4A07F6C5C2@Marsh>
Message-ID: <CALLz9QkzX5DoxF7c-S7bPU7d5-_WzoLKMj=y7dosV_QMQP20Hw@mail.gmail.com>

I wish I understood Polish.  My family lived in Lodz and likely came from
nearby Zelow first.  I still need to confirm this through archives in
Zelow.  I don't know where they came from before, though my grandfather
suspected Czech.  For those who are interested in Zelow ancestry especially
of Czech/Bohemian descent, check out the video below, in particular from
6:54 to 11:43.  I attempted to transcribe what was written on the sign the
reporter is reading from and came up with something like this (then
translated through google).  I'd be interested if anyone could translate
the sign properly for me.  No need to translate the video, I just need to
one day visit Zelow myself for the information.

Tu w Zeloweja w roku 1803 nowy dom
znaleski Bracia Czescy
kloczy d?a wolnosci somienia i w znawania wiary
ne???????
??????  Braci Czeskich
?????

Here in Zelow in 1803 a new home
znaleski Bohemian Brethren
kloczy for Freedom somienia and the granting of faith
ne????
????? Unity of the Brethren
?????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYjBgtlALtU

Natalie

Researching Tomesch/Tomesz and Krotochwil/Krotoviel from Lodz and possibly
Zelow


On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 6:19 PM, gpvjem <gpvjem at sasktel.net> wrote:

> **
>     More questions seem to arise than are answered in "old" church
> records.  I can not answer your questions specifically.  All I can tell you
> that as I recall most of the Catholic men, if not all, had surnames that
> indicated they were of German descent.  Without going into a detailed
> history, suffice to say  there were large numbers of ethnic Germans
> in Tschechei for centuries.  That was the excuse Hitler used to invade
> Czechoslokia in 1938.
>
>     The *full* translations of the Lodz church records gave no indication
> why men from Tschechei came to Lodz.  Usually people move from place to
> place for economic reasons and Lodz was in a modest "boom" during the mid
> 1850s.  BTW the full translations I used to prepare the Legacy file are now
> in the SGGEE library in Calgary.
>
>     As I mentioned previously, it would be interesting to examine the
> Catholic church records for Lodz  for the period 1825 to 1850 to
> see how many similar Czech migrants were recorded, and to whom they were
> married etc.
>
> John Marsch
> In still sunny Saskatchewan
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> I'm very interested in something John Marsch recently wrote regarding
> marriages at Trinity - Lodz between Catholics and Lutherans:
>
> "Another interesting  tid-bit that I noticed, many of the Catholic men had
> come to Lodz from Tschechei (now the Czech Republic), likely to work in the
> textile industry for which Lodz was famous at the time."
>
> Does anyone know more about those who left "Tschechei" to come to Lodz?
> When did they leave?  Did they only leave to seek jobs in the growing
> textile industry in Lodz, or was there another reason?  If there were
> Catholics who married in Lutheran churches, does that mean they converted
> to Lutheranism?
>
> Natalie
> _______________________________________________
>
>


From kbrowne01518 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 15 19:33:36 2013
From: kbrowne01518 at gmail.com (Kenneth Browne)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 22:33:36 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans >
 Lachmann
In-Reply-To: <593EE3160AC24DB894E653D274C282AA@Medion>
References: <335597517.19377179.1379177508477.JavaMail.root@cds026>
	<5234B07B.6020008@gmail.com>
	<593EE3160AC24DB894E653D274C282AA@Medion>
Message-ID: <52366E00.5010202@gmail.com>

On 09/15/2013 01:59 PM, Andreas Leyer wrote:
> Hello Kenneth,
>
> also my ancestors came over Antoniel?w / Kielce to Volhynia. I spend a lot
> of time looking into the churchbooks of Kielce. Before there were Lutheran
> church records till 1838 they went to the catholic church in Lopuszno.
>
> Therefore, I can also say something about the Lachmann family to you.
Thank you very much for all this information. I have some of this 
information already but
this will help fill in some blanks. The point about the Samuel 
Lachmann  mentioned in the
marriage document for Gottlieb Lachmann and Juliana Josefa Wolf is 
very interesting and
completely new to me.

I wonder if the Beile Lachmann who refers to herself as a 
sister-in-law of my great grandfather,
Samuel G. Lachmann could have been married to a cousin of Samuel?? 
Technically that would
not make her a sister-in-law but so far I haven't identified a brother 
of Samuel who might have
married Beile.

I received the 1852 marriage document from Diethard Kolewe quite some 
time ago but your
explanation of some of the detail is most appreciated. Anything else 
related to the Lachmann
family that you may have will be of interest to me and my 2nd cousin, 
another Samuel Lachmann.

Ken


> Lachmann, Matth?us, * ~ 1778, + Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 29.05.1834
> oo Anna Rosine Jakubowski(also Jankowski)
>
> childs
> 1. Lachmann, Beate, * ~ 1795
> oo Lopuszno / Kielce / Polen 25.01.1823
> Christian Deutschmann, * ~ 1795
>
> 2. Lachmann, Johann Karl, * Jutrosin Preussen 16.02.1808
> oo I. Lopuszno / Kielce / Polen 17.01.1832 Luise L?dtke, II. Anna Dorothea
> Z?llmer (Celmer)
> L?dtke, Luise, * Olendrach piotrkowskich Gm. Trzepnicy pow Piotrkow ~ 1808,
> + Antonielow / Kielce / Polen 11.03.1862
> Lt. Heiratseintrag Geburtsort "Miedzychowie Starych Preussen"(also Birnbaum)
> Z?llmer (Celmer), Anna Dorothea, * Antonielow / Kielce / Polen 06.02.1803
> (she was a sister of my greatgreatgreatgrandfather)
>
> 3. Lachmann, Gottlieb, * Jutroszim Panitwa? Pruskim ~ 1812
> oo Lopuszno 16.11.1835 Anna Dorothea Reimann, Reimann, Anna Dorothea, * ~
> 1817
>
> 4. Lachmann, Johann Daniel, * ~ 1815
> oo Kielce / Polen 01.03.1840 L?dtke, Anna Henrietta, * ~ 1821
>
> 5. Lachmann, Samuel, * ~ 1818, + Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 06.01.1823
>
> 6. Lachmann, Kristiane, * ~ 1819, + Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 18.10.1822
>
> 7. Lachmann, Gottfried Gottlob, * Josefin / Kielce / Polen 26.07.1822, +
> Olszowka / Kielce / Polen 26.07.1823
>
> Number 2 > Johann Karl Lachmann oo Luise L?dtke had 8 childs. First child
> was
>
> Lachmann, Johann Gottfried, * Olszciska Gm. Lopuszno / Kielce / Polen
> 12.11.1832
> oo Kielce / Polen 02.02.1852
> Wolf, Julianna Josefa, * Kajetanovic Gm. Mokra 04.03.1833
>
> Her parents are
>
> Wolf, Kristian, * Hirschbergus Szlasku  Preussen ~ 1799, + Antonielow /
> Kielce / Polen 21.12.1856
> oo Thonn, Julianna, * ~ 1801
> In the inhabitantsbook of Kielce ist her familyname Celmer.
>
> The parents of Kristian Wolf are
>
> Wolf, Friedrich oo Katharina, her familyname is unknown.
>
> In the marriage document of Gottfried Lachmann oo Julianna Josefa Wolf is
> mentioned a Samuel Lachmann 23 y.(born ~ 1829) from Skatki. He was one of
> the attestors, probably related, but not the son.
>
> Anna Wilhelmina Richter, a descendant in the Luedtke family above, appears
> later and married a Samuel Lachmann. I have no further information on him,
> but she was born about 1828, so he could be the Samuel Lachmann in the
> marriage document.
>
> Hope, you get new information. If you are interested, I can send you a
> excel-file with Lachmann birth, death and marriage of Kielce and Lopuszno.
>
> Regards
>
> Andreas
>
> www.familie-leyer.de
>
>
>> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] Im
>> Auftrag von Kenneth Browne
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 14. September 2013 20:53
>> An: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Betreff: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>>
>> On 09/14/2013 12:51 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>>>    Jews also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were
>> given permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so.
>> My ggfather, Samuel Lachmann, was born in Sept, 1865 in Rozhysche
>> (sp?) and migrated to the U.S. (Chicago) in 1891. His first wife, my
>> ggmother, Alvine Mroch died young and her origins are still a mystery,
>> other than 1900 census which state
>> place of birth as "Germany". Samuels place of birth is listed as
>> "Russia."
>>
>> In re: the above citation, is it possible that Samuel's birth in 1865
>> (or 1866) could have been recorded in a Lutheran church, even if he or
>> his parents were Jewish? Seems unlikely except for the existence of
>> letters written by his "sister in law" in 1931 and 1937. The first
>> letter in Yiddish, the second in English with help of a friend
>> states...'back to Poland we cannot go because we have no passport.'
>>
>> I also have a digital copy of Samuel's parents' marriage in 1852. I
>> cannot read the Polish, but I can pick out some of the names and it
>> appears to mention a Samuel Lachmann. Other keywords that I picked out
>> of the document (a .TIF file) are Kielce, Antonielow, Gottfried
>> Lachmann, Juliana Josefa Wolf, and at the bottom what looks like
>> Pastor Kielecki.
>>
>> As far as I know, Gottfried Lachmann's father was a Karl Lachmann. So
>> if I've deciphered these names correctly, who is this other Samuel
>> Lachmann who existed some 13 years before my ggf's birth? Ah, the
>> mystery of genealogy.
>>
>> --
>> Kenneth Browne researching: BROWN(E) LEIGHTON TAYLOR CLOUGH/CLUFF
>> LACHMANN RUSSELL NOURSE MORSE PETTENGILL NOBLE SMALL WOLF MROCH
>> LUEDTKE HECKBERT MANTEI
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
>
>



From okolewe at me.com  Sun Sep 15 16:48:21 2013
From: okolewe at me.com (Ort Kolewe)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 18:48:21 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] tombstone translations
In-Reply-To: <8D0807E2DAC23A1-18D4-24EF3@webmail-d213.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8D0807E2DAC23A1-18D4-24EF3@webmail-d213.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <AE6CAB78-AAE1-4B2E-8D80-E937DC831DE2@me.com>

You are getting a taste of dialects written at less than 8th grade education if that. 
The poet believed in the Afterlife and death is a long sleep. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Charlotte Dubay <hoeserhistory at aol.com> wrote:

> German:


From ceo at ametric.com  Mon Sep 16 05:39:44 2013
From: ceo at ametric.com (John Bettger)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 07:39:44 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Variations of Surnames - Schindler
In-Reply-To: <5236351A.8000403@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1379271600.15034.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
	<001501ceb24c$94fb0320$bef10960$@com> <5236351A.8000403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31B5E8C7ADC55B4CABC2D2DE10C20B30840707ABBC@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>

Gary

My GG Grandmother was Anna Louisa Schindler B. 1793 Slowik (near Lodz) Koenigreich Poland/South Prussia. Does this fit with your Schindlers?

Best Regards
John Leon Bettger
email address  ceo at ametric.com 



Best Regards
John Leon Bettger
email address? ceo at ametric.com 

Researching Waterloo South Russia (Stavki Ukraine) Odessa (city) South Russia (Odessa Ukraine) at 67 Ekaterininskaya Square (at the top of Potemkin Steps) Slowik (near Lodz) Koenigreich Poland/South Prussia, Gruenstadt Bavaria (Worms Germany), Westlau Germany,? Neubrandenburg, Mecklenburg-Strelitz Prussia/Germany

NAMES: Bettger, Boettcher, Huhn, Schindler, Heuter

-----Original Message-----
From: Ger-Poland-Volhynia [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at sggee.org] On Behalf Of Gary Warner
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 6:31 PM
To: Gary Gomes
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Variations of Surnames - Schindler

Gary,

Schinske and Schindler and Schindel are all different German names, so 
far as I know.   The Lutheran pastors were all Germans, and they would  
almost always record a German name properly, unless they did not hear the name correctly, or later made the entry incorrectly from notes that they took at the time of the event.

If the record was recorded in the Catholic parish, however, the priests were always Poles who generally did not speak German, and they may or may not have recorded the German names correctly, and they may or may 
not have translated the German name into a Polish one.   Herein lies 
another problem with a Polish translation of a name, because several different German names with the same beginning might get translated into the same Polish surname.

If the record you are looking at seems to fit in all respects other than 
the surname, then look more closely at the record.   For instance, does 
the spouse or mother have the name of a know relative, are the witnesses names that you recognize, asnd is the village the same as you know where your family lived?  Recording mistakes were made, and it sometimes takes some sleuthing to figure out what is correct.

Gary Warner
SGGEE Database Manager

On 9/15/2013 12:48 PM, Gary Gomes wrote:
> My extended family group migrated from the Lutsk to Lublin region to 
> Canada between 1890 and 1915.  Family names include Lange, Pries, 
> Gurel and Schindler and I have found numerous intermarriages among the families.
>
> I have found the SGGEE surname equivalence guide very useful as I 
> search among records of different locales and times, but I could use a 
> little more help (I have zero language skills in German, Polis or Russian):
>
> Is there any likelihood that Schinschke is some variation of Schindler?
> There is a 1886 record of marriage bans between my great grandmother 
> Caroline Gurel (later Pries) and an Adolf Heinrich Schinschke; I can 
> find no further records of Adolf, but wonder if he might be part of 
> the SchindlerSchindel/Schendel family.
>
>
> Gary Gomes
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From dfoote at okstate.edu  Mon Sep 16 10:59:21 2013
From: dfoote at okstate.edu (Foote, Daniel)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 13:59:21 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Dutch vs. German - Bloch/Block
Message-ID: <CAM2-tYUZUujgJuYoirZkVvT2rSQeZrq4ozAjd+w4PjFydvvGmQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm behind because I started a new job this weekend. Hopefully I can add
something.

1. Some branches of the Block surname, especially those found in North and
Central Poland, are of Dutch origin.  See my post here and the links I
give: http://mennonitegenealogyforum.com/forum/Thread-van-der-Block

2. Charlotte Dubay: Is it possible that your ggm spoke "Pennsylvania
Dutch"? This is not actually Dutch, but a form of High German. But because
of the Block surname, 'Dutch' might me correct.

3. Low German/Saxon is its own language family, separate from High German.
Within it there are dialects. Frisian is also its own language. One of its
dialects is West Frisian. To confuse matters, one dialect of Low German is
East Frisian.

4. Imagine a continuum, or spectrum. On the left, English. On the right,
High German. Starting from the right, moving left. Leaving High German in
the south and central areas and moving north, you encounter dialects that
get closer to Low German. Tag ('day') becomes Dag (g like k). Moving
further left you reach Dutch. Dag (dak) becomes Dag (g like ch in the back
of the mouth). Moving further left you reach Frisian. The consonant of Dag
is lost, becoming 'dei' prounounced like English 'day'. Frisian is the
closest related language to English. In 1066, the Anglo-Saxons and the
Frisians would have been able to understand each other.




> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:23:08 -0400
> From: Otto <otto at schienke.com>
> To: Charlotte Dubay <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] difference betw Dutch and German
>         language?
> Message-ID: <17EF2CA6-945B-4B31-A1D4-E3FF39B9594B at schienke.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Sep 13, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Charlotte Dubay wrote:
>
> >
> > What pleasure this mailing list brings...thank you all...
> >
> > Another question, triggered by your posts:
> > My Block ancestors (German Lutherans) lived in Posen area (about 100 NE
> of Berlin) from 1700-1892, until my great-grandparents came to USA.
> >
> > My great-grandmother Wilhelmina Meyer Block spoke Dutch, but was born in
> Posen, baptized in near-by Lobsens.
> >
> > Any ideas on why grgrandmother spoke Dutch? If her parents were Dutch,
> you would still think she learned German in Posen. How different does Dutch
> sound from German? (Great-grandmother passed away 2 years before I was
> born, so I never heard anyone speak Dutch. Guess I should google a
> translation program and hear what it at least "sounds" like!)
>
>
> Block, Bloch, Blech as the spelling dances with the vowel sound. Block
> sounds anglicized, (ck use). . .maybe.
> Grandma probably spoke a Frisian (name sounds frisian) or Lower Saxon
> dialect. Very similar to Dutch(Deutsch).  All are Lowland German dialects.
> The German of the North Sea and Baltic coast shores was Platt-Deutsch,
> Flatland/Lowland German.
>
> She didn't learn German from anyone in Posen, she already spoke it.
> Since 1871 it became fashionable to speak the "Hochdeutsch"/High German of
> Luther's bible (in public anyway) High German has nothing to do with
> superiority of language, it was geographical, the speech of the hill
> dwellers from Luther's vicinity. I refer to it as 'hilly saxon.'
>
> . . .   Otto
>          " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>                 _____________________________________
>                   "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
>
>
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:49:14 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Charlotte Dubay <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] difference betw Dutch and German
>         language?
> Message-ID: <8D07ED17582D370-C60-173A9 at webmail-d261.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Thank you, Otto.
> A note to the list:
> Yes, I microfiched Posen (Sokolitz) records, and indeed, the surname Block
> was spelled Block, Bloch, Blech, throughout time. (DOBs and given names
> confirmed they were same family).
>
> Also, I had read some history of the high German being from the high lands
> -
> NOTHING to do with superiority of language -
> but the Germans of the Dakotas forgot to read that paragraph! hah.
>
> You clarified (Low Saxton/lowland/platt deutch) definition for me.
> I hadn't thought of it being a "dialect" of German!
> That certainly would explain it - beings it doesn't look like she ever
> even visited Holland! hah.
>
> Had to google "Frisian" - a German ethnic group from Netherland area, in
> case someone else doesn't know.
> Thank you again, Otto
> And thank you, Frank, for confirming that I had the right Heimthal!
>
> Charlotte DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
>
>
>
>


From HorstRenz at AOL.com  Mon Sep 16 15:40:22 2013
From: HorstRenz at AOL.com (Horst Renz)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 18:40:22 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Schindel, Schindler
Message-ID: <7AD088C0-2C6B-473E-9909-1E59F71B2B6D@AOL.com>

Gary, 
I know of a Schindler family from Kr. Lutzk area , where the church records and the EWZ records have siblings in that same  family who entered their family name  variably  and interchangeably as Schindel and Schindler, so apparently in that family at least , the two names were interchangeable. 
Horst

From garyw555 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 16 16:16:03 2013
From: garyw555 at gmail.com (Gary Warner)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 16:16:03 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Schindel, Schindler
In-Reply-To: <7AD088C0-2C6B-473E-9909-1E59F71B2B6D@AOL.com>
References: <7AD088C0-2C6B-473E-9909-1E59F71B2B6D@AOL.com>
Message-ID: <52379133.3080103@gmail.com>

Horst,

Lots of strange things happen in the recorded records

Gary

On 9/16/2013 3:40 PM, Horst Renz wrote:
> Gary,
> I know of a Schindler family from Kr. Lutzk area , where the church records and the EWZ records have siblings in that same  family who entered their family name  variably  and interchangeably as Schindel and Schindler, so apparently in that family at least , the two names were interchangeable.
> Horst
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From HorstRenz at AOL.com  Mon Sep 16 17:38:23 2013
From: HorstRenz at AOL.com (Horst Renz)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 20:38:23 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Menke-Renz
Message-ID: <BE181FED-94C7-42D6-BD05-EEAD69E33142@AOL.com>

Chris,
I haven't been able to find any connection between the Shitomir Renzes and mine, which are from the Lutzk area.  but have only gotten back to my great-great paternal grandfather.  Perhaps further back in the mists of time there may be a connection.  Do you have the ancestors of Christine and dates/places of their birth?
Horst

From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Tue Sep 17 05:13:06 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 08:13:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] train stations in Zhitomir oblast
Message-ID: <8D081B666BD9047-D0C-3294B@webmail-m157.sysops.aol.com>


Hello listers,
My grandmother's family left Heimthal in 1894. They took the train to Bremen.
I don't know where they boarded the train. 
I have seen photos of the "new" train station at Zhitomir, but I was wondering 
how many towns had stations - 
or if in those early days you had to leave from the Zhitomir station. 
Is there a list somewhere of train stations in Zhitomir / all of Volhynia? 

I had read that the railroad development in Russia was "behind" other 
European countries - with availability coming later for Russian travelers. 

Thanks for any leads.

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Tue Sep 17 05:21:49 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 08:21:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] why would passenger ship carry just two
	families?
Message-ID: <8D081B79E1D0CE7-D0C-32B41@webmail-m157.sysops.aol.com>


Hello again to listers,
Another question:
My Heimthal ancestors came to America on the SS Stuttgart I, leaving Bremen,
arriving at Baltimore in 1894. Ship not to be confused with SS Stuttgart II, 
that was manufactured 20 some years later, by a different builder.
 
(I was fortunate to find both their manifest and a photo of the ship 
more than 10 years ago - when online searching was pretty much free.)

But I have often wondered why on this particular crossing, the ship only carried 
2 families...20 passengers.

I had done some searching on the ship itself, and it carried full 
passenger lists on other crossings. 

Thanks for any ideas on why a ship would carry so few passengers. 
Cargo that trip perhaps?

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From mackzie at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 17 07:15:20 2013
From: mackzie at earthlink.net (Beth Burke)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 09:15:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] A map that shows where every American came
	from
Message-ID: <30999897.1379427320882.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.sggee.org/pipermail/ger-poland-volhynia/attachments/20130917/f802a430/attachment.html>

From eleanorhaas at gmail.com  Tue Sep 17 09:18:12 2013
From: eleanorhaas at gmail.com (Eleanor Haas)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 09:18:12 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] A map that shows where every American
	came from
In-Reply-To: <30999897.1379427320882.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <30999897.1379427320882.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAEAuf6_X3O7zy1SrKi+15T-ripV4wiyK2rAjv3HmBU-_41TBrg@mail.gmail.com>

There surely are a lot of Germans represented there!  Thanks for sharing,
it was interesting.
Eleanor Haas
Sun City, AZ

Eleanor


On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Beth Burke <mackzie at earthlink.net> wrote:

> At the website listed below, you will find a map of the United States
> showing the heritage data for Americans based on census data.  It's just a
> tidbit of information that some might find interesting.
>
> Beth Burke
> Verona, WI
>
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408591/American-ethnicity-map-shows-melting-pot-ethnicities-make-USA-today.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>


From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Tue Sep 17 09:21:06 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:21:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Zhitomir trains,
	and best URL for huge free library in USA
Message-ID: <8D081D90BB7AABA-DCC-35114@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com>



DanW.Wagner sent me a photo of train station in Zhitomir:

Dan
Yes, that IS the picture that I have. HORSES??  and I thought it was a "regular" train. hah.
 
I just read the following this morning, on Wiki: 
 
The Tsarskoye Selo Railway line was officially opened on 30 October 1837, when an 8-carriage train was hauled by a steam locomotive between Saint Petersburg and Tsarskoye Selo. Until the construction of the Moscow ? Saint Petersburg Railway in 1851, it was the only passenger train line in Russia.[3] In 1899 it was merged into the Moscow-Windau-Rybinsk Railways and now forms part of the Oktyabrskaya Railway. 
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I found nothing on when the ENGINE pulled trains came to Volhynia. Probably need to go to the library. 
 
Actually, some of you may not know this:
THERE IS A FREE DIGITAL LIBRARY ON THE INTERNET THAT CARRIES THOUSANDS OF BOOKS called internet archive digital library. www.archive.org 
This has lots on genealogy. 
If you have never been there, take a visit. And you don't have to whisper!
 
Guess I will try a search there to see what I can find on trains. Real trains!


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From dabookk54 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 17 09:30:43 2013
From: dabookk54 at yahoo.com (Karl Krueger)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 09:30:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Notice from the Ger-Poland-Volhynia listserv
	administrator
Message-ID: <1379435443.17144.YahooMailNeo@web140801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

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From MacDerk at aol.com  Tue Sep 17 10:31:55 2013
From: MacDerk at aol.com (MacDerk at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:31:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] dialects
Message-ID: <c1da4.6388e081.3f69ec0b@aol.com>

One note on Borscht... it is practical since you have it in a big  
travelling pot that you can build a fire under with wood or propane or what have  
you.  I would bet my life that it was the meal of sailors, armies on  
foot...or gypsies searching for the elephants stolen from India by Alexander...  if 
there is one useful thing to know how to assemble it is borscht and the  
implements and ingredients follow ... the invention... "....Necessity truly is  
the mother of invention..."  and borscht the lasting proof that armies and  
sailors etc... march and sail on their stomachs...  I had the pleasure of  
working at sea with a crew mate from Poland ... en route to Odessa during 
the  grain grants... his room was stuffed full of beets for the voyage...
_The Early History, The Gypsies_ 
(http://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/early.html)  and sailors...  transporting or looking for... borscht...
 


No one knows  when the first gypsies left India or, indeed,  why. They seem 
to have arrived in the Middle East about 1000 AD, some going on  into North 
Africa ...  
More results for _original gypsies from India looking for  elephants_ 
(https://www.google.com/search?biw=1253&bih=656&q=original+gypsies+from+india&sa=X
&ei=PJE4Us2lIYmS9QTt5IHwBw&ved=0CGEQjxgwBQ) 

 
 
In a message dated 9/13/2013 12:26:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
dfoote at okstate.edu writes:

My 2  cents:
- As hinted at by another, 'Prussian' was originally a Baltic ethnic  group
and Baltic language. The ethnic group was largely assimilated by the  12-13
century 'crusades' of the Tuetonic Knights. The Prussian language  is
documented (vocabulary lists, catechism) up to the 16th century. In  the
modern era, there are a 'Low Prussian' and a 'High Prussian' (See  Wikipedia
for outlines)

- 'Ish' reveals influence from southern and  central High German dialects.
The other end of the spectrum, Low German (as  well as Dutch, Frisian) is
'Ik'. Central High German is in the middle,  '/ix/' (IPA, like Scottish
'loch')

- In the small town of Corn,  Oklahoma and its surroundings, there was a
significant population of  Germans from Russia or Poland. The majority were
Low German speaking  Mennonites from Russia/Ukraine/Volhynia/Crimea. Others
were from Russian  Poland who mostly had reverted to High German by the
1850s. (The Mennonites  along the Vistula had come from Dutch/Low German
areas, spoke Dutch in  church until 1750s, while quickly adapting to the
Vistula Low German)   We have my great-aunt and my grandfather (who had a
father born near  Warsaw) on video recalling a joke. The Low  Germans
(Plattdeutsch/Plautdietsch) spoke a German that was  'platt  und verdreht':
flat and twisted. They recalled this in the presence of my  grandfather's
wife, who was from a Low German family. She chuckled. This is  one of the
few vivid memories I have of them, since they all pased in the  mid- 1990s
when I was in my teens. (Yes, I'm one of the youngsters of the  list)

- Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Perogies. However, I do  know that
Borscht is tomato and chicken based ;) , Zweiback are soft, sweet  yeast
rolls (not large crackers), Verenika is plain yummy  and
Porzelki/Niejakoakja are fabulously  sinful.
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From ggomes at soundviewnet.com  Tue Sep 17 14:04:26 2013
From: ggomes at soundviewnet.com (Gary Gomes)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 15:04:26 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Schindlers and Variations
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1379358000.19375.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1379358000.19375.ger-poland-volhynia@sggee.org>
Message-ID: <023b01ceb3e9$7ed2f730$7c78e590$@com>

Thank you John, Gary and Horsch for your responses.

As with Horsch, I have found at least one data entry of "Schindel" among the
"Schindler's.  The Schinske was a just longshot.

In answer to John's query about Lodz Schindlers in my family:

"My" Schindler's were from Lodz in the mid 1900's, but I believe they were
in the Strzelno area at the turn of the 18th century.

Daniel Schindler and his wife Julia Lange and family migrated from the
Scheple/Ludswichin area (near Lutsk) to Canada in October 1890 along with my
GGrandpfather Christopher Lange, GGrandmother Teofila Malarsh (sp?) and
there older children.  The families went to Winnipeg where my grandfather
Emil Lange was born 3 months later.  They all promptly moved on to Ebenezer,
SK.

They were joined by Daniel's sister Christina Schindler Pudel a few years
later and brother Karl migrated to the Hubbard, SK area.

I believe Daniel and his father Johann Gottleib (Bogumit) Schindler were
born in or near Luszczanowice, Kleszczow parish, Piotrokow Tr, Lodz; Daniel
in 1845 and Johann about 1818.  Johann's father (also Johann Gottleib) was
reportedly born in the Strzelno, Poznan area about 1790.

Gary


-----




From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Tue Sep 17 15:26:00 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 18:26:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Fwd:  train stations in Zhitomir oblast
In-Reply-To: <73f73.300768fa.3f69b400@aol.com>
References: <73f73.300768fa.3f69b400@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8D0820C05415B73-2194-386AE@webmail-d215.sysops.aol.com>


MESSAGE #1. 
-----Original Message-----
From: DANWWAGNER <DANWWAGNER at aol.com>
To: hoeserhistory <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 17, 2013 8:32 am
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] train stations in Zhitomir oblast



Charlotte,
I assume you have this photo of the Zhitomir train station.  Don't know the year, but those are horse-drawn wagons.  My notes call this the "old Zhitomir train station."  (NOTE: photo was included.) 
Dan



MESSAGE #2. 

In a message dated 9/17/2013 12:21:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  hoeserhistory at aol.com writes:


DanW.Wagner sent me a photo of train station in Zhitomir:
Dan
Yes, that IS the picture that I have. HORSES??  and I thought it was   a "regular" train. hah.
 
I just read the following this morning, on Wiki: 
The Tsarskoye Selo Railway line was officially opened on 30   October 1837, when an 8-carriage train was hauled by a steam locomotive   between Saint Petersburg and Tsarskoye Selo. Until the construction of the Moscow    ? Saint Petersburg Railway in 1851, it was the only passenger train line   in Russia.[3] In 1899 it was merged   into the Moscow-Windau-Rybinsk Railways and now forms   part of the Oktyabrskaya   Railway.    
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I found nothing on when the ENGINE pulled trains came to Volhynia.   Probably need to go to the library.
Guess I will try a search there to see what I can find on trains. Real   trains!


Charlotte   DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com





MESSAGE #3.
-----Original Message-----
From: DANWWAGNER <DANWWAGNER at aol.com>
To: hoeserhistory <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 17, 2013 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: Zhitomir trains, and best URL for huge free library in USA


Charlotte,
I didn't mean that the horses were pulling the  train cars.  I only meant that horse-drawn wagons were picking up  passengers and freight from the rail stations.  That's an indication that  the station is old.
Sorry for misleading you.
Dan




 
MESSAGE #4. at 5 PM. 
Gotta laugh! Talk about being "concrete"! 

Well, I had read that horses did indeed pull the early "carriage" cars, so I just ASSUMED that is what you meant! Hah. The photo was taken in the 1880s, and since my grandmother left in 1894, I am again ASSUMING that they left from Zhitomir. (not a word about the jokes on the term "assume")... Their last baby was born just weeks before in Novohrad-Volynsk, and others were baptized in Heimthal, so it looks logical that they left from Zhitomir.

 
Found nothing on the time line of the development of Russian trains, except for my initial post. 
There has to be a train buff out there SOME where!  

Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

In a message dated 9/17/2013 8:13:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hoeserhistory at aol.com writes:

Hello listers,
My grandmother's family left Heimthal in   1894. They took the train to Bremen.
I don't know where they boarded the   train. 
I have seen photos of the "new" train station at Zhitomir, but I   was wondering 
how many towns had stations - 
or if in those early days   you had to leave from the Zhitomir station. 
Is there a list somewhere of   train stations in Zhitomir / all of Volhynia? 

I had read that the   railroad development in Russia was "behind" other 
European countries -   with availability coming later for Russian travelers. 

Thanks for any   leads.

Charlotte   DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia   site   list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia





From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Tue Sep 17 17:08:54 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 18:08:54 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Zhitomir trains,
 and best URL for huge free library in USA
In-Reply-To: <8D081D90BB7AABA-DCC-35114@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1385078866.20944700.1379462934778.JavaMail.root@cds026>

The book:

Ukraine: A Historical Atlas
Paul Magosci

has a map of the development of rail lines in Ukraine including the years they opened.  Hopefully your local library (perhaps nearest University library) has a copy.


Jerry




----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org, danwwagner at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:21:06 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Zhitomir trains,	and best URL for huge free library in USA



DanW.Wagner sent me a photo of train station in Zhitomir:

Dan
Yes, that IS the picture that I have. HORSES??  and I thought it was a "regular" train. hah.
 
I just read the following this morning, on Wiki: 
 
The Tsarskoye Selo Railway line was officially opened on 30 October 1837, when an 8-carriage train was hauled by a steam locomotive between Saint Petersburg and Tsarskoye Selo. Until the construction of the Moscow ? Saint Petersburg Railway in 1851, it was the only passenger train line in Russia.[3] In 1899 it was merged into the Moscow-Windau-Rybinsk Railways and now forms part of the Oktyabrskaya Railway. 
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I found nothing on when the ENGINE pulled trains came to Volhynia. Probably need to go to the library. 
 
Actually, some of you may not know this:
THERE IS A FREE DIGITAL LIBRARY ON THE INTERNET THAT CARRIES THOUSANDS OF BOOKS called internet archive digital library. www.archive.org 
This has lots on genealogy. 
If you have never been there, take a visit. And you don't have to whisper!
 
Guess I will try a search there to see what I can find on trains. Real trains!


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From jimmygerum at gmx.de  Wed Sep 18 14:14:43 2013
From: jimmygerum at gmx.de (Jimmy C. Gerum)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 23:14:43 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Families ERBERT and QUAST
Message-ID: <523A17C3.1030806@gmx.de>

Dear Mailing list,
hello from Germany, I am new member this August and I research the Families
ERBERT and QUAST,
located near Pulin (Shitomir) in 1870-1920 in the villages
Lodsianowka, Gaberowka, Justinowka, Blumental, Neberowka.

I have found a lot of QUAST in the SGGEE data.
It would be great to connect with people having relatives in the same 
villages.

Greetings
Jimmy Gerum



From katrin at bokser.ee  Wed Sep 18 22:28:25 2013
From: katrin at bokser.ee (Katrin Hanko)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:28:25 +0300
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Fwd:  train stations in Zhitomir oblast
In-Reply-To: <8D0820C05415B73-2194-386AE@webmail-d215.sysops.aol.com>
References: <73f73.300768fa.3f69b400@aol.com>
	<8D0820C05415B73-2194-386AE@webmail-d215.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <B3082E87A0F84A089124DF6D7AA71C67@Katsa>

Hi Charlotte,

The first train ever left Zhitomir Train Station on January 9th, 1896 - 
according to this article http://zhzh.info/publ/4-1-0-4190

Best regards
Katrin Hanko
from Estonia



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: <danwwagner at aol.com>; <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 1:26 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Fwd: train stations in Zhitomir oblast


>
> MESSAGE #1.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DANWWAGNER <DANWWAGNER at aol.com>
> To: hoeserhistory <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> Sent: Tue, Sep 17, 2013 8:32 am
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] train stations in Zhitomir oblast
>
>
>
> Charlotte,
> I assume you have this photo of the Zhitomir train station.  Don't know 
> the year, but those are horse-drawn wagons.  My notes call this the "old 
> Zhitomir train station."  (NOTE: photo was included.)
> Dan
>
>
>
> MESSAGE #2.
>
> In a message dated 9/17/2013 12:21:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> hoeserhistory at aol.com writes:
>
>
> DanW.Wagner sent me a photo of train station in Zhitomir:
> Dan
> Yes, that IS the picture that I have. HORSES??  and I thought it was   a 
> "regular" train. hah.
>
> I just read the following this morning, on Wiki:
> The Tsarskoye Selo Railway line was officially opened on 30   October 
> 1837, when an 8-carriage train was hauled by a steam locomotive   between 
> Saint Petersburg and Tsarskoye Selo. Until the construction of the 
> cow    ? Saint Petersburg Railway in 1851, it was the only passenger train 
> line   in Russia.[3] In 1899 it was merged   into the 
> Moscow-Windau-Rybinsk Railways and now forms   part of the Oktyabrskaya 
> Railway.
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I found nothing on when the ENGINE 
> pulled trains came to Volhynia.   Probably need to go to the library.
> Guess I will try a search there to see what I can find on trains. Real 
> trains!
>
>
> Charlotte   DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
>
>
>
>
> MESSAGE #3.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DANWWAGNER <DANWWAGNER at aol.com>
> To: hoeserhistory <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
> Sent: Tue, Sep 17, 2013 3:17 pm
> Subject: Re: Zhitomir trains, and best URL for huge free library in USA
>
>
> Charlotte,
> I didn't mean that the horses were pulling the  train cars.  I only meant 
> that horse-drawn wagons were picking up  passengers and freight from the 
> rail stations.  That's an indication that  the station is old.
> Sorry for misleading you.
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> MESSAGE #4. at 5 PM.
> Gotta laugh! Talk about being "concrete"!
>
> Well, I had read that horses did indeed pull the early "carriage" cars, so 
> I just ASSUMED that is what you meant! Hah. The photo was taken in the 
> 1880s, and since my grandmother left in 1894, I am again ASSUMING that 
> they left from Zhitomir. (not a word about the jokes on the term 
> "assume")... Their last baby was born just weeks before in 
> Novohrad-Volynsk, and others were baptized in Heimthal, so it looks 
> logical that they left from Zhitomir.
>
>
> Found nothing on the time line of the development of Russian trains, 
> except for my initial post.
> There has to be a train buff out there SOME where!
>
> Charlotte DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 9/17/2013 8:13:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> hoeserhistory at aol.com writes:
>
> Hello listers,
> My grandmother's family left Heimthal in   1894. They took the train to 
> Bremen.
> I don't know where they boarded the   train.
> I have seen photos of the "new" train station at Zhitomir, but I   was 
> wondering
> how many towns had stations -
> or if in those early days   you had to leave from the Zhitomir station.
> Is there a list somewhere of   train stations in Zhitomir / all of 
> Volhynia?
>
> I had read that the   railroad development in Russia was "behind" other
> European countries -   with availability coming later for Russian 
> travelers.
>
> Thanks for any   leads.
>
> Charlotte   DuBay
> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia   site   list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia 



From rlyster at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 19 08:35:56 2013
From: rlyster at telusplanet.net (rlyster)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 09:35:56 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Genealogy question
In-Reply-To: <180448290.37255833.1379604826387.JavaMail.root@mailid.telus.net>
Message-ID: <1835037835.37259168.1379604956227.JavaMail.root@mailid.telus.net>

I am hoping some of you experts out there can give me some guidance or point me in the right direction.  My husband's family is from Ireland.  I found a record to do with immigration that says:
Sheds Officer with date of 31 August 1846 and list of family numbers, ie adults and children and reason for detention, for many it looks like they were sick or in hospital  and for this John Lyster it looks like "father debt" maybe.  
Does anyone out there have experience with this sort of thing and can message me privately?

Rita Lyster


From eheil at cfl.rr.com  Sun Sep 22 10:29:04 2013
From: eheil at cfl.rr.com (Elizabeth Heil)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 13:29:04 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland?
Message-ID: <9F7DCE00646B453194F0722E1E48B22A@owner93814074b>

In researching a peripheral ancestor, I found a reference on a typed Declaration of Intention that Helen (Dreger) Lau living in Cleveland, OH and born in 1891, was a "German" from "Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland". I'm familiar with the words Nowe, the Plock parish, and of "Russia Poland" (with ancestors who say they are from either place!) but I can't find Kzize. I'm sure it was probably phonetically written as the Nove probably was. Any suggestions? I've seen some possible similar names. She was also listed on a passenger list in 1902 (at age 9) as being from Plock, Russia but on the same trip but on the initial leg from Hamburg, the whole family was listed as being from Saratov, Russia (a German colony on the Volga?)  On the 1910 census, she was listed (as well as all of the family) as being "Aust/German". Wondering if the family/ancestors emigrated from Austria/Germany to Russia, gave it up, and then made their way across the continent to emigrate eventually to the US. Thanks!

From hoeserhistory at aol.com  Sun Sep 22 13:25:07 2013
From: hoeserhistory at aol.com (Charlotte Dubay)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 16:25:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Could it be Nova, Poland?
Message-ID: <8D085E8F657D70A-1ED4-10DF7@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com>



Message: 1
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 13:29:04 -0400
From: "Elizabeth Heil" <eheil at cfl.rr.com>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland?
Message-ID: <9F7DCE00646B453194F0722E1E48B22A at owner93814074b>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

In researching a peripheral ancestor, I found a reference on a typed Declaration 
of Intention that Helen (Dreger) Lau living in Cleveland, OH and born in 1891, 
was a "German" from "Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland". I'm familiar with the words 
Nowe, the Plock parish, and of "Russia Poland" (with ancestors who say they are 
from either place!) but I can't find Kzize. I'm sure it was probably 
phonetically written as the Nove probably was. Any suggestions? I've seen some 
possible similar names. She was also listed on a passenger list in 1902 (at age 
9) as being from Plock, Russia but on the same trip but on the initial leg from 
Hamburg, the whole family was listed as being from Saratov, Russia (a German 
colony on the Volga?)  On the 1910 census, she was listed (as well as all of the 
family) as being "Aust/German". Wondering if the family/ancestors emigrated from 
Austria/Germany to Russia, gave it up, and then made their way across the 
continent to emigrate eventually to the US. Thanks!

Hi Elizabeth, 
There is a Nova, Poland, near Plock....
Could it be that? 
Then the term Kzize could maybe read Kreise? 
Just a thought...
If it works for you -  I googled Nova, Poland, and got the little town. 


Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com



From cdnirene at gmail.com  Sun Sep 22 18:23:30 2013
From: cdnirene at gmail.com (Cdnirene)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 20:23:30 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland
Message-ID: <CANFnV5cTiR5pN6Gose8Y06Pn6=W6S=ygNujudAPGzS7sHxZs-w@mail.gmail.com>

I've had good luck finding villages by downloading and carefully reading
these old military maps:

http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

In response to:

Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 13:29:04 -0400
From: "Elizabeth Heil" <eheil at cfl.rr.com>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>
> > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland?
>
>


From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Sun Sep 22 20:36:12 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 21:36:12 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland?
In-Reply-To: <9F7DCE00646B453194F0722E1E48B22A@owner93814074b>
Message-ID: <2088826258.23512393.1379907372895.JavaMail.root@cds026>

Our Master Pedigree Database has Helen Dreger in it, born 19 Feb 1891, married to August Lau.

It does not give her birth place but data on her parents indicates they were living at Krzyzanowo, Plock.  You will find it at 52.660247,19.538641 on Google Maps, NW of Plock.

For the time being, focus on that and not on probably erroneous data suggesting Saratov or Aust/German.


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Heil" <eheil at cfl.rr.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:29:04 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland?

In researching a peripheral ancestor, I found a reference on a typed Declaration of Intention that Helen (Dreger) Lau living in Cleveland, OH and born in 1891, was a "German" from "Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland". I'm familiar with the words Nowe, the Plock parish, and of "Russia Poland" (with ancestors who say they are from either place!) but I can't find Kzize. I'm sure it was probably phonetically written as the Nove probably was. Any suggestions? I've seen some possible similar names. She was also listed on a passenger list in 1902 (at age 9) as being from Plock, Russia but on the same trip but on the initial leg from Hamburg, the whole family was listed as being from Saratov, Russia (a German colony on the Volga?)  On the 1910 census, she was listed (as well as all of the family) as being "Aust/German". Wondering if the family/ancestors emigrated from Austria/Germany to Russia, gave it up, and then made their way across the continent to emigrate eventually to the US. Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From Krampetz at aol.com  Sun Sep 22 20:41:13 2013
From: Krampetz at aol.com (Krampetz at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 23:41:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland
Message-ID: <f037d.62d5ba51.3f711259@aol.com>

Many military maps & older, at: http://igrek.amzp.pl/
   The master map I like is at http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=WIG100
    You will need to know the major city/town to find which  map you need.
    For instance, my major area was around Lipno.  So I  downloaded P37 S28
    Plock is P38 S29,  both are about 14MB - so you  better have a good 
image
    viewer (Hint:  I use IRFANVIEW  free)
 
    The fine detail in these maps is down to showing 'potted  plants'  ! ;-)
     Unfortunately,  I haven't found an index of  villages.
 
Good Luck hunting,
Bob K.     
 
 
 
In a message dated 09/22/13 06:23:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
cdnirene at gmail.com writes:

I've had  good luck finding villages by downloading and carefully reading
these old  military  maps:

http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

In  response to:

Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 13:29:04 -0400
From: "Elizabeth  Heil" <eheil at cfl.rr.com>
To:  <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>
> > Subject:  [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock,  Poland?
>
>
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia



From eheil at cfl.rr.com  Mon Sep 23 02:23:03 2013
From: eheil at cfl.rr.com (Elizabeth Heil)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 05:23:03 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland?
Message-ID: <9A86383CCF77413591B04E98443E4E78@owner93814074b>

Thank you to everybody for the great (and fast) suggestions!  Lisa

From mackzie at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 23 07:29:04 2013
From: mackzie at earthlink.net (Beth Burke)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:29:04 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Requesting statistical genealogy information
Message-ID: <31661303.1379946544956.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.sggee.org/pipermail/ger-poland-volhynia/attachments/20130923/0cacc180/attachment.html>

From udo-edelgard at freenet.de  Tue Sep 24 09:43:45 2013
From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de (Edelgard Strobel)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:43:45 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn records,
	Polish and Russian script
Message-ID: <A98199F3DAE64A53ABB1EBCFEE562809@acer747b59264e>

I am looking for two place names, found in the records of Grodziec and Stawiszyn:

1. Marriage of Daniel Steinbrenner *1805 in Konary, Grodziec, son of Andreas and the deceased Rosina F.,
oo Jan. 31, 1827 Grodziec
Dorothea Schultz *1810 in "Wisheim or Weilheim z taria Pronauskiem?"

I cannot find Wiesheim, just Weilheim in Bavaria. But what does "Pronauskiem" mean?
http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/54/853/0/6.1/1/skan/full/RfhIJFk6RG1LrBDsDTgH7w

2. death record of Johanna Beate Zink, nee Grunwald
+ June 27,1892 Przyranie, Kalisz,  born abt. 1817 in "Wielkiem Krzynstwie?" Prussia,
daughter of Gottfried Grunwald and Anna Dorothea Kurz.

http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/11/754/0/1/19/skan/full/PPS8DqL4OyPs7D1LExxx-w

The most similar place name I could find is Chrzypsko Wielkie, Miedzychod.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Greetings from Germany,

Edelgard



From tggrtime at yahoo.ca  Tue Sep 24 10:17:53 2013
From: tggrtime at yahoo.ca (B Hirsekorn)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 10:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] =?utf-8?q?1790_=E2=80=93_1830_Polish_record?=
	=?utf-8?q?s?=
Message-ID: <1380043073.37068.YahooMailNeo@web121305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Are there any birth, marriage and death records for 1790 to
1830 for the Lodz area of Poland? 

If there are, where would they be located ?
the Lodz archives or in Warsaw or the German archives? 


Betty Hirsekorn

From textor_jan at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 24 10:40:38 2013
From: textor_jan at hotmail.com (Jan Textor)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 19:40:38 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn
 records, Polish and Russian script
In-Reply-To: <A98199F3DAE64A53ABB1EBCFEE562809@acer747b59264e>
References: <A98199F3DAE64A53ABB1EBCFEE562809@acer747b59264e>
Message-ID: <DUB124-W17A7D726FB719D70B78CAAF52E0@phx.gbl>

Hello Edelgard,
 
I think I can help you with the second place name.  The record probably says "w Wielkim Ksiestwie Pruskim" which means "in the Grand Duchy of Prussia".
 
Hope this helps,
Jan

 
> From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:43:45 +0200
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn records,	Polish and Russian script
> 
> I am looking for two place names, found in the records of Grodziec and Stawiszyn:
> 
> 1. Marriage of Daniel Steinbrenner *1805 in Konary, Grodziec, son of Andreas and the deceased Rosina F.,
> oo Jan. 31, 1827 Grodziec
> Dorothea Schultz *1810 in "Wisheim or Weilheim z taria Pronauskiem?"
> 
> I cannot find Wiesheim, just Weilheim in Bavaria. But what does "Pronauskiem" mean?
> http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/54/853/0/6.1/1/skan/full/RfhIJFk6RG1LrBDsDTgH7w
> 
> 2. death record of Johanna Beate Zink, nee Grunwald
> + June 27,1892 Przyranie, Kalisz,  born abt. 1817 in "Wielkiem Krzynstwie?" Prussia,
> daughter of Gottfried Grunwald and Anna Dorothea Kurz.
> 
> http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/11/754/0/1/19/skan/full/PPS8DqL4OyPs7D1LExxx-w
> 
> The most similar place name I could find is Chrzypsko Wielkie, Miedzychod.
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Greetings from Germany,
> 
> Edelgard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
 		 	   		  

From textor_jan at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 24 11:10:26 2013
From: textor_jan at hotmail.com (Jan Textor)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 20:10:26 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn
 records, Polish and Russian script
In-Reply-To: <A98199F3DAE64A53ABB1EBCFEE562809@acer747b59264e>
References: <A98199F3DAE64A53ABB1EBCFEE562809@acer747b59264e>
Message-ID: <DUB124-W2746B636277FCD91959C61F52E0@phx.gbl>

Hello Edelgard,
 
I read the following in the marriage record of Daniel Steinbrenner and Dorothea Schultz:
"a Pann?

 Dorot?

 Szultz c?rk?

Woyciecha i El?biety ma??onk?w Szultz okupnik?w z Borowca urodzonej w Wielkim Xstwie (Ksi?stwie) Pozna?skim i dotyczas przy rodzicach zostaj?cej siedemna?cie lat maj?cej."
Here is my translation:
"and the unmarried woman Dorothea Schultz, the daughter of Georg and Elisabeth Schultz, colonists of Borowiec, born in the Grand Duchy of Posen and until now staying with her parents, 17 years of age."
 
Hope this helps,
Jan
 
> From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:43:45 +0200
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn records,	Polish and Russian script
> 
> I am looking for two place names, found in the records of Grodziec and Stawiszyn:
> 
> 1. Marriage of Daniel Steinbrenner *1805 in Konary, Grodziec, son of Andreas and the deceased Rosina F.,
> oo Jan. 31, 1827 Grodziec
> Dorothea Schultz *1810 in "Wisheim or Weilheim z taria Pronauskiem?"
> 
> I cannot find Wiesheim, just Weilheim in Bavaria. But what does "Pronauskiem" mean?
> http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/54/853/0/6.1/1/skan/full/RfhIJFk6RG1LrBDsDTgH7w
> 
> 2. death record of Johanna Beate Zink, nee Grunwald
> + June 27,1892 Przyranie, Kalisz,  born abt. 1817 in "Wielkiem Krzynstwie?" Prussia,
> daughter of Gottfried Grunwald and Anna Dorothea Kurz.
> 
> http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/11/754/0/1/19/skan/full/PPS8DqL4OyPs7D1LExxx-w
> 
> The most similar place name I could find is Chrzypsko Wielkie, Miedzychod.
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Greetings from Germany,
> 
> Edelgard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
 		 	   		  

From paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de  Tue Sep 24 11:49:03 2013
From: paul.edward.luther.rakow at desy.de (Paul Rakow)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 20:49:03 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] 1790 - 1830 Polish records
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1309242010090.27360@pub5.ifh.de>


  Betty,

      Yes, in several of the towns around Lodz there are
  civil records in Polish back to about 1820, with Catholics,
  Protestants and Jews all recorded together. There are
  Catholic church records for Lodz itself, going back to 1685,
  you might find something there.  Also the Pastor from the
  Protestant Parish at Ilow (Sochaczew) made occasional trips
  to the Lodz area, the Ilow records go back to 1779.

      There is a lot of information about when the various
  congregations around Lodz were first founded, and when
  these towns had their "boom years".  Can you be more
  specific than just "Lodz area"? Are you interested in
  a particular town?

       Were the families you are looking for farmers, or
  were they involved in the textile industry? That could
  give us a clue as to when they were likely to have arrived
  in the area.

                      Paul Rakow

B Hirsekorn tggrtime at yahoo.ca wrote:

>Are there any birth, marriage and death records for 1790 to
>1830 for the Lodz area of Poland? 
>
>If there are, where would they be located ???
>the Lodz archives or in Warsaw or the German archives? 
>
>
>Betty Hirsekorn




From paula-jean at comcast.net  Tue Sep 24 20:51:01 2013
From: paula-jean at comcast.net (paula-jean at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:51:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Looking for Several Locations on a Map -- Pre
	1920
Message-ID: <1638236723.1176594.1380081061773.JavaMail.root@sz0001a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>



Looking to find Nowina, Warminsko-Marurskie, Poland??? I have several different spellings of the area/county 



Looking to find? Weidrau/Wiederau, Mogilno, Poland? Again, I have serveral different spellings of the city and county. 



Looking to find? Przylenke, Bromberg, Poland -- I don't know if the spelling on any of this is correct. 





The family lived in Poland and Russia -- German Lutherans? 



Thanks for any help. 



Paula Meiers 


From franklyspeaking at shaw.ca  Wed Sep 25 06:02:26 2013
From: franklyspeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 07:02:26 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Looking for Several Locations on a Map --
 Pre	1920
In-Reply-To: <1638236723.1176594.1380081061773.JavaMail.root@sz0001a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1466774778.24812994.1380114146285.JavaMail.root@cds026>

Warminsko-Mazurskie = Warmian-Masurian Voivodship (district) in former East Prussia.  I could not find a Nowina in this area though there are several shown in the Posen region covering your other two locations.

Wiedrau = modern day Wydartowo which can be found at 52.606696,17.859464 on Google Maps.

Przylenke might be Przylenk located at 52.335864,16.092024 on Google Maps.  It seems to be too far away to be associated with Bormberg / Bydgoscz but the relevance may be dependent on the source you have used.

Further research on these areas can be effective using http://www.kartenmeister.com which focuses on former Prussian regions.

None of these locations were ever in Russia.


Jerry







----- Original Message -----
From: paula-jean at comcast.net
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:51:01 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Looking for Several Locations on a Map -- Pre	1920



Looking to find Nowina, Warminsko-Marurskie, Poland??? I have several different spellings of the area/county 



Looking to find? Weidrau/Wiederau, Mogilno, Poland? Again, I have serveral different spellings of the city and county. 



Looking to find? Przylenke, Bromberg, Poland -- I don't know if the spelling on any of this is correct. 





The family lived in Poland and Russia -- German Lutherans? 



Thanks for any help. 



Paula Meiers 
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From udo-edelgard at freenet.de  Wed Sep 25 08:21:15 2013
From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de (Edelgard Strobel)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 17:21:15 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn
	records, Polish and Russian script
References: <A98199F3DAE64A53ABB1EBCFEE562809@acer747b59264e>
	<DUB124-W17A7D726FB719D70B78CAAF52E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3A359CDD9F5F4328B103E6CE218CC257@acer747b59264e>

Hello Jan,

thanks for your help. I also thought of "Wielkiem" instead of "Wielheim", but I am not sure about Pruskiem, because there are still 3 letters between Pr- and -uskiem and Prussia had not been a Grand Duchy but a Kingdom. I cannot find other Grand Duchies starting with "Pr".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_duchy
Could it be "Poznanskiem"?

I hoped that the first marriages of Grodziec are complete in the SGGEE db, but this marriage does not appear. The couple later lived in Brzezinskie Holendry, Konin.

Edelgard

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jan Textor 
  To: Edelgard Strobel ; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:40 PM
  Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn records, Polish and Russian script


  Hello Edelgard,
   
  I think I can help you with the second place name.  The record probably says "w Wielkim Ksiestwie Pruskim" which means "in the Grand Duchy of Prussia".
   
  Hope this helps,
  Jan

   

  > From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de
  > To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
  > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 18:43:45 +0200
  > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn records, Polish and Russian script
  > 
  > I am looking for two place names, found in the records of Grodziec and Stawiszyn:
  > 
  > 1. Marriage of Daniel Steinbrenner *1805 in Konary, Grodziec, son of Andreas and the deceased Rosina F.,
  > oo Jan. 31, 1827 Grodziec
  > Dorothea Schultz *1810 in "Wisheim or Weilheim z taria Pronauskiem?"
  > 
  > I cannot find Wiesheim, just Weilheim in Bavaria. But what does "Pronauskiem" mean?
  > 

From udo-edelgard at freenet.de  Wed Sep 25 08:24:44 2013
From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de (Edelgard Strobel)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 17:24:44 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn
	records, Polish and Russian script
References: <A98199F3DAE64A53ABB1EBCFEE562809@acer747b59264e>
	<DUB124-W2746B636277FCD91959C61F52E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BCE9ADD56D054F8A824598C112D302DA@acer747b59264e>

So I was right with "Poznanskiem" :-)

Thanks again,

Edelgard
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jan Textor 
  To: Edelgard Strobel ; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 8:10 PM
  Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn records, Polish and Russian script


  Hello Edelgard,
   
  I read the following in the marriage record of Daniel Steinbrenner and Dorothea Schultz:
  "a Pann? Dorot? Szultz c?rk? Woyciecha i El?biety ma??onk?w Szultz okupnik?w z Borowca urodzonej w Wielkim Xstwie (Ksi?stwie) Pozna?skim i dotyczas przy rodzicach zostaj?cej siedemna?cie lat maj?cej."
  Here is my translation:
  "and the unmarried woman Dorothea Schultz, the daughter of Georg and Elisabeth Schultz, colonists of Borowiec, born in the Grand Duchy of Posen and until now staying with her parents, 17 years of age."
   
  Hope this helps,
  Jan
   


From garynrho at live.ca  Wed Sep 25 10:30:20 2013
From: garynrho at live.ca (rhonda simpson)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 12:30:20 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ostrone/Ostrona/ Shitomir
Message-ID: <BAY178-DS5E3C775FF7C87BAE2EABED62F0@phx.gbl>

Can anyone tell me where Ostrone or Ostrona is or was?  Also Alexandrowka, 
Shitomir (I get the Zhitomir but trying to get a proximity of these locales. 
The other locations I found in the archives (>From information found in the 
Heimthal church records, it would suggest that  Franzdorf was also known as 
Franzowka located north of Wolodarsk,  immediately  below Ryschewka and east 
of the village of Krajewschtschina.  Howard Krushel)

This info from EWZ files on Odessa3 search  I am particularly looking for 
information on Ottilie Hinz geb Kroening  Also, I am curious as to why she 
is listed on 3 different files?

Hinz, Ottilie               1888 Ostrona 
A3342EWZ50-D046 1404         geb. Kroening
Japs, Harta                29 Nov 1910 Alexandrowka 
A3342EWZ50-D046 1404        geb. Hinz

Hinz, Ottilie              1888 Ostrone 
A3342-EWZ50-D007 1516     geb. Kroening
Hinz, Adoline             22 Dec 1917 Krajewschtschina, Shitomir 
A3342-EWZ50-D007 1516      geb. Serdijenko

Hinz, Ottilie              26 Feb 1888 Ostrone, Shitomir 
A3342-EWZ50-D007 2140    geb. Kroening
Hinz, Ewald              16 Mar 1924      Franzdorf, Shitomir 
A3342-EWZ50-D007 2140
Hinz, Heinrich             29 Apr 1879 Alexandrowka, Shitomir 
A3342-EWZ50-D007 2140
Hinz, Selma                16 Sep 1929 Franzdorf, Shitomir 
A3342-EWZ50-D007 2140
Hinz, Reinhard               10 Sep 1918 Franzdorf, Shitomir 
A3342-EWZ50-D007 2140

RHonda 



From salliasfamily at charter.net  Wed Sep 25 15:14:28 2013
From: salliasfamily at charter.net (salliasfamily at charter.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 18:14:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn
 records, Polish and Russian script
Message-ID: <7351e621.131b6a.14157300b0d.Webtop.46@charter.net>

Edelgard,

Any connections to:

Christina Steinbrenner m. Godfried Leske, daughter Ludwika Leske b. Alt 
Borowiec 1869

Pauline Steinbrenner, parents Friedrich Steinbrenner and Christine 
Jeske, b. 1885 Grodziec, d. Milwaukee, WI, US 1966
   m. August Priefer / m. Karl Hammerling

Dorothea Elisabeth Schultz m. Gottlieb Schorrak, daughter Anna Rosina b. 
1825 Borowiec, son Gottfried b. 1833 Borowiec

Any Schultz or Steinbrenners in Prazuchy?

Sally in Wisconsin


On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Edelgard Strobel wrote:

> I am looking for two place names, found in the records of Grodziec and 
> Stawiszyn:
>
> 1. Marriage of Daniel Steinbrenner *1805 in Konary, Grodziec, son of 
> Andreas and the deceased Rosina F.,
> oo Jan. 31, 1827 Grodziec
> Dorothea Schultz *1810 in "Wisheim or Weilheim z taria Pronauskiem?"
>
> I cannot find Wiesheim, just Weilheim in Bavaria. But what does 
> "Pronauskiem" mean?
> 
> http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/54/853/0/6.1/1/skan/full/RfhIJFk6RG1LrBDsDTgH7w
>
> 2. death record of Johanna Beate Zink, nee Grunwald
> + June 27,1892 Przyranie, Kalisz,  born abt. 1817 in "Wielkiem 
> Krzynstwie?" Prussia,
> daughter of Gottfried Grunwald and Anna Dorothea Kurz.
>
> 
> http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/11/754/0/1/19/skan/full/PPS8DqL4OyPs7D1LExxx-w
>
> The most similar place name I could find is Chrzypsko Wielkie, 
> Miedzychod.
>
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
>
> Greetings from Germany,
>
> Edelgard
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia


From eleanorhaas at gmail.com  Wed Sep 25 15:25:12 2013
From: eleanorhaas at gmail.com (Eleanor Haas)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 15:25:12 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Kzize Nove, Plock, Poland
In-Reply-To: <f037d.62d5ba51.3f711259@aol.com>
References: <f037d.62d5ba51.3f711259@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAEAuf69WyYk3XspQTwkn9syawKPSOTRFKT0PRH3p7CfYu58-CA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for sharing this.  My grandfather and his parents came from the
Lipno/Torun area.

Michael Meyer b. 1826 with wife Ewa Kraus b 1835 were the parents of my
great grandfather Ferdinand Jan Meyer
Ferdinand (1859 - 1924) married Louisa (Ludwika) Sonnenberg (1861 - 1941)
Children: unknown first
Frederick (my grandfather) 1886-1970 married Ellen Peterson (she is from
Norway)
other children were:
Eduard, Ferdinand, Anna, William, Emil, Amelia and Albert.  William is the
first in the family to be born in the US which was Corlis Township,
Ottertail County, Minnesota.

Children of Frederick and Ellen:
Ellen (my mother), Laura, Henry, Albert Paul

My grandfather gives Weissendorf, Russia Poland as his birth place and last
place of residence in Poland.  His father Ferdinand came to America maybe
with a sister or ? but his wife and the children that were born over there
didn't come until about 8 1/2 years later.

*The following is on Ludwika nee Sonnenberg. . .*
*From LDS library film #715180 Osowka/Lipno. The first birth record #236 in
the year 1861 from the village of Skrzypkowo.  It says that on 11 September
1861 August Sonnenberg came to register the child.  He is a farmer from
Skrzypkowo, age 32.  He came together with Michal Sonnenberg, age 41, also
a farmer and Ernest Krueger, age 22, both from Skrzypkowo.*
*
*
*They told the registrar that a child was born 22 June 1861 to the first
witness (August) and his wife Justyna Krueger, age 24.  The child was
christened and named Ludwika (German for Louisa) Wilhelmina.  The witnesses
were Anna Jahnke and Karolina Jabs.*
*
*
*Skrzypkowo is a village along route 10 halfway between the cities of Lipno
and Torun.*
*
*
*From the 1905 Census for Corliss Township, Ottertail County it says that
Louisa had been here 8 yrs and 8 months while Ferdinand her husband had
been here 9 yrs and 1 month.  Also lists her as being born in Poland as
well as her parents.*


Eleanor


On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 8:41 PM, <Krampetz at aol.com> wrote:

> Many military maps & older, at: http://igrek.amzp.pl/
>    The master map I like is at
> http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=WIG100
>     You will need to know the major city/town to find which  map you need.
>     For instance, my major area was around Lipno.  So I  downloaded P37 S28
>     Plock is P38 S29,  both are about 14MB - so you  better have a good
> image
>     viewer (Hint:  I use IRFANVIEW  free)
>
>     The fine detail in these maps is down to showing 'potted  plants'  !
> ;-)
>      Unfortunately,  I haven't found an index of  villages.
>
> Good Luck hunting,
> Bob K.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 09/22/13 06:23:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> cdnirene at gmail.com writes:
>
> I've had  good luck finding villages by downloading and carefully reading
> these old  military  maps:
>
> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm
>
> In  response to:
>
> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 13:29:04 -0400
> From: "Elizabeth  Heil" <eheil at cfl.rr.com>
> To:  <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> >
> > > Subject:  [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Where is Kzize Nove, Plock,  Poland?
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  site  list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>


From udo-edelgard at freenet.de  Thu Sep 26 06:05:49 2013
From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de (Edelgard Strobel)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 15:05:49 +0200
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn
	records, Polish and Russian script
References: <7351e621.131b6a.14157300b0d.Webtop.46@charter.net>
Message-ID: <C57242622F86406F880D7F8AA2099FBA@acer747b59264e>

Hello Cousin Sally,

I am just transcribing the Russian Stawiszyn records and could find the 
marriage of

Wilhelm Leske *abt. 1872 in Stary Borowiec, Grodziec
son of Gottfried Leske and Christine Steinbrenner
Jan. 30, 1895 in Stawiszyn
1895, page 186, # 16
http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/11/754/0/1/22/skan/full/p8kM2y2721rW1muXEBfA0g
to
Rosine Kanwischer *abt. 1879 Zamety, Kalisz
daughter of Gottfried Kanwischer and Karoline Grunwald

I was not sure about the spelling of Kanwischer. It derives of Kannenwischer 
= Flaschenb?rste = bottle brush and is a jocular term for a person of a 
short stature. But the pastor almost wrote Kanwischer and sometimes 
Kahnwischer and there are still Kanwischers living today.

I have only been looking for the Janott surname and some Laube in the 
Grodziec online records, to help other researchers. Unfortunatelly there are 
many gaps in the church book stocks. I first want to finish my Stawiszyn 
transcriptions.

Greetings from Germany,

Edelgard


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <salliasfamily at charter.net>
To: "Edelgard Strobel" <udo-edelgard at freenet.de>
Cc: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 12:14 AM
Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Place names in Grodziec and Stawiszyn 
records, Polish and Russian script


> Edelgard,
>
> Any connections to:
>
> Christina Steinbrenner m. Godfried Leske, daughter Ludwika Leske b. Alt 
> Borowiec 1869
>
> Pauline Steinbrenner, parents Friedrich Steinbrenner and Christine Jeske, 
> b. 1885 Grodziec, d. Milwaukee, WI, US 1966
>   m. August Priefer / m. Karl Hammerling
>
> Dorothea Elisabeth Schultz m. Gottlieb Schorrak, daughter Anna Rosina b. 
> 1825 Borowiec, son Gottfried b. 1833 Borowiec
>
> Any Schultz or Steinbrenners in Prazuchy?
>
> Sally in Wisconsin
>
>



From gilleh23 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 27 08:20:45 2013
From: gilleh23 at gmail.com (Helen Gillespie)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:20:45 -0400
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] 71 Digital Portals to (U.S.) State History
Message-ID: <CAPK9VaKNvH-ecY8eGia4fns+arJDHuW9fkJ4ffaDTK0vegQjDg@mail.gmail.com>

Hope folks find some useful info in these various state archives....

http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservation/2013/09/71-digital-portals-to-state-history/

 Helen Gillespie