[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] germans from russia from ukraine and so on

Otto otto at schienke.com
Sat Feb 12 11:25:01 PST 2011

On Feb 12, 2011, at 3:15 AM, Krampetz at aol.com wrote:

> The Germans born in "Occupied Poland" from about 1860 on,  were
> told they were Russian,  and had to use Russian in their church   
> documents.
> And I've mentioned one case of a German born near Lipno, emigrating   
> before
> WWI,  told his grandson (who emailed the story to me),  that his  gf  
> had
> never heard the word "Germany" until he came here.  He thought  of  
> himself
> as "German speaking Russian"!
> I'd be interesting to hear that confirmed by others.
> Bob K.

They became Russian nationals under Russian governance. Nationhood is  
a political construct built on a system of law to function as a nation.
One must take care not to use or confuse 'nationality' as a synonym  
for 'ethnicity.'
Nationality is easy to identify. . . Who collects your income tax?

He never heard the word Germany? Most did not. Germany first became a  
'nation' in 1871. Der alter Fritz laid the groundwork.Up to that time  
it was a collection of fiefdoms as the core of the holy roman empire.
He may well have been a "German speaking Russian" instead of an ethnic  
German with Russian citizenship.
On his naturalization papers what nation did he swear off allegiance to?
You must qualify his status for us.
Was he a Russian national, a citizen of Russia? Or an ethnic Russian?   
Was he a German national?  Was he perhaps an ethnic German living  
under Russian rule? What language was spoken at home in the  
kitchen,'the kitchen speech'? Was he a Lutheran? Perhaps he was  
Catholic as where many Germans in the large cities?  Most men in  
Russian Poland were eligible for Russian draft under Russian law.

Many of the Germanics that emigrated to the States did not want to be  
referred to as a "Pole."
It was similar to conditions in the States after WW1 and WW2, when  
many referred to themselves as 'Americans' and shunned speaking out  
the term 'German.'  My cousins in BC, Canada, who settled there after  
WW2 claimed 'Polish' ethnicity to avoid the stigma of 'German.'

Many of the Germanic people in what is today's Poland were  
multilingual. They had to be for day to day life.
My forefathers never set foot on "German" (Nation, national) soil with  
the exception of My Dad. My father, with his parents, spoke Low  
German, a mixture of Frisian/Low Saxon/Low East Old Prussian at home,  
Luther's German, high German with relations outdoors then Polish and  
Russian at market and with administrative officials.

What was the Germanic ethnicity of one's forefathers, (to name a  
few)?  Homework needs to be done. There is a tendency to use the term  
'German' in a generic sense.
Swiss? Swabian? Frank? Hessian? Austrian? Saxon? Flemish? Lower Saxon?  
Frisian? Angle? Dutch? Danish?  Swedish? Norwegian?
Even then a pedigree chart substantiated with deep clade DNA testing  
is necessary to attempt a scholarly approach to the answer if one  
really exists for Homo sapien sapiens.

One must differentiate between Nationality and Ethnicity to clarify  
the muddle.
Excessive nationalism can lead to 'patriotism.' (proud of the soil one  
lives on)
Excessive ethnicity can lead to 'racism.' (proud of the blood flowing  
through one's veins)
The effect of excessive nationalism and ethnicity combined, was the  
force behind Nazism.

I'd included a definition of 'ethnicity' in yesterday's E-letter to  
the ListServ.
1.	relating to or characteristic of a human group having
racial,religious, linguistic, and certain other traits in common


For further reading on the subject and areas involved I refer you to  
Albert Muth's excellent ListServ E-letter of:
	From: 	albertmuth734 at gmail.com
	Subject: 	Re: Our ancestral areas
	Date: 	February Friday11, 2011 7:02:16 PM EST
To all, make time to read. Do not become satisfied with 'whistle-stop  

. . .   Otto
         " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2011-
                                "Everything . . .  isasis"

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